And yes

[james_davis_nicoll]

The Baen sample had a larger fraction of female writers than the Tor sample: 1:2.5 as compared to 1:3.7. Female characters to male at Baen ran 1:1.7, and at Tor 1:2.3.

Comments

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

Thus completely shooting down my prejudices. Or at least one prejudice.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I wasn't totally surprised. Back in olden days, Jim Baen actively tried to recruit female authors or so I heard. I don't recall hearing that Tor's legion of editors makes an effort one way or the other.

[xinef.livejournal.com]

I had the same reaction based on that policy of Jim Baen.

[connactic.livejournal.com]

When did Baen's Female-to-Male ratio start to skew upward- was it after Bujold became successful? I am wondering if Baen having a celebrated female author in their stables resulted in getting more manuscripts from women authors and thus allowed them to publish more books by women.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Baen's 1984 offering according to isfdb:

                                                       Author/editor
                                                              F      M
Web of Darkness, Marion Zimmer Bradley 	                      X
Frontera, Lewis Shiner 	                                             X
Fire Time,Poul Anderson 	                                     X
The Best Science Fiction of the Year #13, Terry Carr 	             X
The Return of Retief, Keith Laumer                                   X
The Zanzibar Cat, Joanna Russ 	                              X
Birds of Prey, David Drake 	                                     X
The 40-Minute War, Janet Morris, Chris Morris 	              X      X
Rhialto the Marvellous, Jack Vance 	                             X
Eternity, Dean Ing, Mack Reynolds 	                             X
Returning Creation, Janet Morris 	                      X 
Valentina: Soul in Sapphire, Joseph H. Delaney, Marc Stiegler 	     X
Cugel's Saga, Jack Vance 	                                     X    
The Game Beyond, Melissa Scott 	                              X
The Golden Sword, Janet Morris 	                              X
Chrestomathy, Keith Laumer 	                                     X
Mutual Assured Survival, Jerry Pournelle, Dean Ing 	             X
Aubade for Gamelon, John Willett 	                             X
The Other Time,	Dean Ing, Mack Reynolds 	                     X
Survival!, Gordon R. Dickson 	                                     X
Hothouse, Brian Aldiss                                               X
Total                                                         6     16

Tor, same year (part one)

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

                                                              Author/editor
                                                               F        M 
The Final Encyclopedia, Gordon R. Dickson 	                        X
Gryphon's Eyrie, Andre Norton, A. C. Crispin 	               X
Planet of No Return, Harry Harrison 	                                X
The Inheritor, 	Marion Zimmer Bradley 	                       X
Incarnate, Ramsey Campbell 	                                        X
Shadoweyes, 	Kathryn Ptacek 	                               X
Educ J Parrish: Ghost, Haunt, Russell Martin 	                        X 
Ikon, Graham Masterton 	                                                X
The Pariah, Graham Masterton 	                                        X
Cast a Cold Eye, Alan Ryan 	                                        X 
A Manhattan Ghost Story, T. M. Wright 	                                X
Tales of the Flying Mountains, Poul Anderson 	                        X
A Midsummer Tempest, Poul Anderson 	                                X
Past Times, Poul Anderson 	                                        X  
The Unicorn Trade, Poul Anderson, Karen Anderson 	       X        X
Conflict, Poul Anderson 	                                        X
The Pig Plantagenet,Allen Andrews 	                                X
Castle Crespin, Allen Andrews 	                                        X
Jupiter Project, Gregory Benford 	                                X
The Stars in Shroud, Gregory Benford 	                                X
Out of the Sun, Ben Bova 	                                        X
Escape Plus, Ben Bova 	                                                X
Spirits of Flux & Anchor, Jack L. Chalker 	                        X
Spirits of Flux & Anchor, Jack L. Chalker 	                        X
Empires of Flux & Anchor, Jack L. Chalker 	                        X
Blood on the Moon, Barney Cohen 	                                X
The Black Company, Glen Cook 	                                        X
Shadows Linger, Glen Cook 	                                        X
Homecoming, John Dalmas 	                                        X
The Yngling, John Dalmas 	                                        X
The Last Master, Gordon R. Dickson 	                                X
Hoka!,Poul Anderson, Gordon R. Dickson                                  X

Re: Tor, same year (part two)

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

The Forlorn Hope, David Drake 	                                        X
Cross the Stars,David Drake 	                                        X
Anvil of the Heart, Bruce T. Holmes 	                                X
Conan the Magnificent,Robert Jordan 	                                X
Conan the Destroyer,  Robert Jordan 	                                X
Conan the Victorious, Robert Jordan 	                                X
The Monitors,Keith Laumer 	                                        X
Once There Was a Giant, Keith Laumer	                                X
A Trace of Memory, Keith Laumer 	                                X
Creation Descending, Jack Lovejoy 	                                X
The Second Kingdom, Jack Lovejoy 	                                X
The Helix and the Sword, John C. McLoughlin 	                        X
Wheel of Stars,Andre Norton 	                               X
The Darkangel, Meredith Ann Pierce 	                       X
Midas World, Frederik Pohl 	                                        X
Men of War, J. E. Pournelle 	                                        X
Blood and Iron, J. E. Pournelle, John F. Carr 	                        X
Chaos in Lagrangia,  Mack Reynolds 	                                X
Stardance, Spider Robinson, Jeanne Robinson 	               X                        X
The Last of Danu's Children, Alison Rush 	               X
The First Book of Swords, Fred Saberhagen 	                        X 
The Third Book of Swords, Fred Saberhagen 	                        X
The Gate of Worlds, Robert Silverberg 	                                X
Mallworld, Somtow Sucharitkul 	                                        X
World's End, Joan D. Vinge 	                               X
Ambassador of Progress,  Walter Jon Williams 	                        X 
Damnation Alley, Roger Zelazny 		                                X
The Castle of Doom, Richard Brightfield 	                        X
Island of Fear, Richard Brightfield 	                                X
Terror Under the Earth Richard Brightfield 	                        X
The Adventures of Samurai Cat, Mark E. Rogers 	                        X
Kindred Spirits, Alan Brennert                                          X 
The Black Tide, Hammond Innes 	                                        X 
Wake in Darkness, Donald E. McQuinn 	                                X
Brother Esau, Douglas Orgill, John Gribbin 	                        X
total                                                          9       60

Re: Tor, same year (part two)

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

So in a year when Baen was running 1:2.5 F:M, Tor was running 1:6.7.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

The Zanzibar Cat, Joanna Russ

A bright shiny penny for anyone who talks the current Baen management into doing a 201n edition of How to Suppress Women's Writing (because obviously compared to some other publisher, Baen really does not have the hang of this).

[isfdb.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you're using isfdb for this as we don't actually record the gender of authors (or editors, reviewers or artists). It's been suggested that we do so, and in fact one of our newer editors, Darrah Chavey, claims a specialty in SF by women authors.

[movingfinger.livejournal.com]

Not to be contrary, but that ratio is visible running one's eyes down the list of forthcoming-from, and has been for a long time.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I haven't looked at the forthcoming-froms in at least ten years, since I dropped my subscription to Locus.

[daedala.livejournal.com]

Really? It confirmed some of mine. :)

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I think of (A) Baen as being all about the carnography and (B) women as not being interested in carnography. Which of these was wrong is left as an exercise for the reader.

(Note: With Bujold the extreme outlier, until the last couple of years.)

[dsrtao]

Baen has a much wider range than "We have both kinds of books -- assassins *and* soldiers!" But it would be easy to get confused.

[fridgepunk.livejournal.com]

If I pointed out that there's an entire subgenre of softcore porn that consists of largely naked women holding guns and draped in bullet bandoleers, would that help clarify your confusion?

Also: it probably bears pointing out that baen is notorious for having islmaophobic authors, islmaophobia being partial to "we need to save the wimminz from the scary brown menz!", which does produce an impetus towards female protagonists who's sexual abuse at the feindish brown hands of teh moslems the author can write lovingly graphic passages about.

[skapusniak.livejournal.com]

My impression of Baen is that they're a 'Ride whats working for us into the ground, piling it high and deep. And in case you hadn't already deduced it from our cover-art, we have absolutely no shame.' sort of publisher.

Female protagonists and authors are selling? Must get MORE female protagonists and authors! Themes for which a Memetic Prophylactic is Required getting lots of play among our rightist readers? Contract for another six! Author A is popular, author B is also popular? a collaboration between the two (or three, or four) is sure to be popular squared (cubed, to the fourth power)! Mr. Ringo has a deeply fucked-up mysogynist crack-fic trunk-novel he's keeping from me out of MERE SHAME and EMBARASSMENT? Nooooooooo!! Ringo sells! Apply armlock and publish, publish, PUBLISH. Authors with a cult-following backlist series, currently don't have a publisher? Sign them up and milk it with a clutch of sequels! Stuff set in the universe written by author Z is selling well, but Author Z has only 24 hours in the day or is inconveniently dead? Put together a sharecropping deal, or a multi-author short story collection, or bundle three of the backlist into a new omnibus, just get the product out there to the slavering hordes! James P. Hogan went off the deep end years ago and is an embarressment to humanity? Pwfah! Don't you know those crazy aliens buy books too!

Etc. etc.

It does mean that they build up a following, because when you like something they're putting out you can pretty much guarantee you'll be able to get an bunch of other stuff similar from them, and they'll be publishing more in the future. However, it also means when you hate or are offended (and you will be) by something they're putting out, you'll still be absolutely swimming in it, and they just won't care.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

However, it also means when you hate or are offended (and you will be) by something they're putting out, you'll still be absolutely swimming in it, and they just won't care.

Well...why should they? Care, that is.

Publishers, as you point out -- all publishers, not just Baen -- publish what they think will sell. Readers will buy what they want to read -- which will not be all of what the publisher publishes.

There have been times in the past when I've stopped reading SF/F entirely because it seemed to me to be all the someold and I was Sick To Death of it. And no -- not one publisher cared. *Sob*

[skapusniak.livejournal.com]

Well, of course theoretically, they shouldn't care, ask any economist you like. And yes all publishers do it, or they wouldn't still be publishing.

However, if it was as simple as that, how come any publishers anywhere have a skewed male/female ratio (at least of authors) at all? Human's being what they are the editorial selection at any publisher can't just be filtering out the pure slush especially since 'is not the right book for us' requires a idea of 'who are we?'.

I just think Baen have a streak of 'we're rational economic actors!' as part of their explicit self image; and other publishers only have it implicitly, or like to keep it away from public view to avoid scaring the horses. Who got themselves the no-DRM, non-Geographically restricted ebook platform, selling at paperback or below prices (the top three things ebook customers always say they want) after all?

Of course they're kidding themselves just as much as anyone else, as there ain't no such animal as a rational economic actor.

[bluetyson.livejournal.com]

The one I've been tempted to do is nationality of author/publisher and where the story is about...