Translation State by Ann Leckie

[james_davis_nicoll]

What is the measure of a person?

Translation State by Ann Leckie

Comments

[conuly]

To be fair to the Hikipu truthers, "The Presger are a hoax" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "Climate change is a hoax".

The novel even backs up some of the claims they use to support their position - nobody's seen the Presger in generations; the Radch absolutely uses fear of the Presger to back up their control of human space; Translators certainly appear human even when you look closely at their insides or their genes, and can be taught to act more or less human.

Clinging to this belief even when confronted with quite serious evidence to the contrary is not productive, but, really, you'd expect to see more of them given the evidence.

[mecurtin]

I thought it was clear, though subtle, that Hikipu trutherism was engineered by the Schans, who were previous escaped Translators.

When the Translators & Radchaii say, "We can't let Translators out! Who knows what horrible things might happen!" they're covering up (ignoring? unaware?) that Reet's parent isn't the first one to get out, that feral Translators have escaped before. The Schans seem to have been particularly successful in part, I think we're supposed to conclude, by cultivating trutherism in a population they dominate, to reduce the chance that news about them will get back to the other Translators or that the humans will put 2 and 2 together.

[conuly]

I thought it was clear, though subtle, that Hikipu trutherism was engineered by the Schans, who were previous escaped Translators.

I didn't see that at all. I got the impression that the Schans were destroyed before the one and only identified escaped Translator, well, escaped - and the first Schan had arrived a very long time before that.

[mecurtin]

The one & only *admitted* escaped Translator. Remember, the policy of the Translators is "you don't need to know that"--and that even goes for the Presger!--so there's absolutely no reason to believe Reet's parent is the 1st one to get away EVER. And it is creepy how resonant the songs & language are with Reet's feelings, isn't it? And then add in the wacky Presger-trutherism... which is just wacky, except it's really convenient when you control a population and you're trying to keep them from learning about the Presger and vice versa, isn't it?

[elusis]

I think that's a very smart reading. I hadn't quite put those bits together myself but it definitely scans.

[conuly]

Yeah, except - and I admit I'll have to double check - doesn't the Schan origin story predate Translators?

[mecurtin]

IIRC they both take place "about a thousand years ago".

[estrevan]

I like this reading but, on balance and after some thought, I don’t think it works for me because there’s no suggestion the Shan had a Translator life-cycle and it seems like something that would be hard to keep secret.

(And in terms of the story, it seems a little too neat in a way that messes with the themes. But that’s even more a matter of personal opinion.)

[kgbooklog]

Has anyone ever seen a true Presger? I saw no evidence they exist in a form that can be seen. And this book made me wonder if even the Translators were capable of talking to them.

And I kept waiting for someone (like Enae) to point out that [rot13]gur svefg Fpuna jnf nyzbfg pregnvayl n Genafyngbe.

[mecurtin]

Yes, as I said to conuly above, Hipaku trutherism seems clearly to have been planted by the Schans as a way of keeping their origins and nature secret, both from the Hipaku and from outsiders.

It's an interesting choice by Leckie that this is NOT all revealed & made explicit in the "courtroom" scene: that Reet's parent isn't the first escapee, that the Schans descend from Translators, that there are probably others, & that the policy (on both the Translators' & the Radchaiis' part) of information silo-ing isn't actually helping. In most SF novels there WOULD be such a reveal; why did she choose not to?

[elusis]

To make readers absolutely salivate for another Imperial Radch novel? Because it worked on me....

[kylinn]

Re: kept waiting for (spoiler) - me too! I was really surprised that none of the characters seemed to make the connection.

[conuly]

The Radch ambassador says she's seen a Presger, and while she's super irritating in many ways, I just don't think this is something she'd lie about.

[davidgoldfarb]

It's "Qven" not "Qvan" — at least, in my copy of the book.

[james_davis_nicoll]

Fuck. Saved the misspelling. Fixed now.

[ba_munronoe]

" I don’t think there are any taverns per se but I wouldn’t rule it out."
Taverns are woke now? Bad news for some D&D players.

I've only read the first of the Ancillary Justice books, and vaguely remember there being threatening aliens Out There Somewhere, but I don't remember them being presented as being able to easily wipe out humanity if we seriously piss them off: am I just misremembering, or is their nature and existential threat developed further in the next two books?

[philrm]

"Taverns are woke now? Bad news for some D&D players."

Various of the Puppies complained bitterly that early on in the first novel there's a scene with a tavern in the snow, which As We All Know is a clear marker of fantasy, not SF, and How Dare Anyone Do Such a Thing!

The answer to your second question is that the Presger are developed more in the sequels, although I don't really remember the books well enough to comment further; a Presger translator features fairly prominently in one of them.

[ba_munronoe]

Ah. That's some pretty OCD genre-policing.[1] I generally avoid following news about the puppies and their kin: when I encounter their mumblings, I can feel brain cells dying.

[1] Isn't the Mos Eisley cantina a classic fantasy tavern, where the heroes gather before their journey and casual violence may break out at any moment? But I suppose the Puppies may classify Star Wars as fantasy.

[conuly]

Various of the Puppies complained bitterly that early on in the first novel there's a scene with a tavern in the snow, which As We All Know is a clear marker of fantasy, not SF, and How Dare Anyone Do Such a Thing!

Do they imagine that people in the distant future won't drink alcohol anymore?

[philrm]

Imagination isn't exactly the Puppies strong suit.

[conuly]

You said it. And I have no sarcasm when I remark that the far right is the least creative bunch of people on the planet.

Also: If your icon is referencing something I don't know it, but I like it all the same.

[philrm]

It's an image of Skipper from the Penguins of Madagascar television series, which was one of the most hilariously insane things ever.

[elusis]

The Presger canonically enjoy "pulling apart" humans, ships, and entire space stations.

[ba_munronoe]

Yeah, but it doesn't say how. It's rather different if its tractor beams rather than telekinesis or tentacles. :)

[kylinn]

It's stated pretty definitively throughout the series that the reason everyone is so afraid of violating the Treaty is that there is nothing anyone could do to stop the Presgar doing whatever the hell they please if the Treaty didn't hold. And that what they please tends to involve taking things apart, like people, ships, space stations, and possibly worlds if they so decided.

[conuly]

Although this book does make clear that the Presger are eldritch nukes - nobody, but nobody, is going to actually press a claim that the treaty has been voided, because they just don't want to deal with the fallout. So they all talk big about how terrible it would be if the treaty was violated but nobody is going to ever go so far as to press the issue that far.

[kylinn]

Oh absolutely, and they're going to do their best to be sure not to do anything - or at least not risk being caught doing anything - that someone might point to as a Treaty violation.