"Marion Zimmer Bradley: It’s Worse Than I Knew"

[james_davis_nicoll]

memetic prophylactic recommended

Comments

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

I knew because I went to the damn Google and looked it up. I saw Moira telling her side of the story on Wikipedia and Amazon months ago, maybe over a year ago, plus of course the court documents that have been online since 2000. Then there were the mentions of her testimony in her damn obituary, as well as articles and comments on Bleeding Cool, Feministe, The Straight Dope, etc. There's a lengthy thread on RPG.net that has a sub-topic which is actually pretty anti-MZB, so the Operation: Ignore (as Carlos called it) going on with this latest round of so-called revelations is pretty chuckleworthy. When RPG.net gets it but you [1] don't, then that's a wake-up call.

Amidst all this were the usual bullshit apologist tactics of the SF/F crowd, like Ansible calling Goldin's "tell a friend" email option on his website a "dirty trick". And the stuff that conflates child molestation with homosexuality, and calls MZB "controversial" as though being feminist and aiding and abetting a pederast were the same thing. That article and others went to great pains to paint MZB as someone who was betrayed by a husband who had done her and her children wrong, while completely ignoring MZB's editing help of Breen's pederasty text, and her own testimony.

The info was out there. Hell, the info was right here in James' journal, talked about casually on a regular basis, so the people gasping in shock because They Never Knew are not particularly convincing.

[1] Not the YOU you, the general you. I'm essentially using your post as a springboard for comments, which I hope is okay.

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

Don't you know that fandom is the only source of true knowledge? Mundanes and that hateful Carlos freak clearly have an ax to grind against Our Beloved Genre / Subculture. Why should we trust anything they have to say?

[ravenskyewalker.livejournal.com]

I can only excuse my lack of full knowledge of all this by explaining that, though I love to do research, I'd never actually researched that mess until now, and because I've spent the last batch of years taking care of aged, demented parents (one of whom has since died, the other of whom is now in assisted living), I had missed a lot of, well, probably everything, and it actually had to be shoved in my face to make me fully aware. I knew about Breen's rep, but not so much about MZB's apparently wholehearted cooperation.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

To Google something, you have to know there's something to Google. I haven't Googled "MyFaveAuthor sex abuse", because I haven't heard any rumors that MyFaveAuthor has done something bad. Which gets back to connectedness; if you've heard something wrong about MZB, you Google it, but not everybody is in the correct circles to Google it. I adore James's LJ, but there are zillions of fans of [say] The Mists of Avalon who've never heard of it, and who don't think of themselves as SF fans. It's one thing to despise the people who had the information and denied it/didn't act on it, but it's over-egging the pudding to despise people who didn't know they should be looking for the information in the first place.

I am (very distantly) connected to fandom, and I *did* Google MZB sex abuse back when I read the Goldin website, and the information about Moira in particular wasn't out there.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

There's also the matter if the text is in-your-face with regard to the real-life issues of the author, and when you read it.

For some work, it's blatantly obvious: you don't really need to do a lot to realize that something is seriously fucked up with the author, or there is a serious agenda at work, if you read bits of The Turner Diaries or Anthony's Firefly or Left Behind, of any of the current crop of "America FUCK YEAH except the gubmint FUCK THEM" authors. It doesn't take much to realize the authors either have serious issues or are doing parody, which might cause someone to look up info on that author and discover that yes, they are a real piece of work (or making fun of other people), and that's easy to find now.

Someone picking up Mists of Avalon and some of her other work for the first decades or more after it came out would face two things: first, there's nothing in your face about her real-life activities in the book (or most of her books, as far as I can determine), so there's no reason to go look up the author to see if her real life is really as screwed up as the text blatantly suggest if there's no overt suggestion in the text. Secondly it would have been a hell of a lot harder to get that sort of information. Outside of cons where people talk and publisher press releases, where is someone going to find out all sorts of things about Bradley easily? Can't look it up on websites when there's no web. You'd have no idea about Breen. And what are the odds that after 20 or 30 years you'd randomly have reason to look up the author and suddenly discover all this shit on your own?

For the average reader outside of deep fandom, there'd be no reason for them to know this information.

Or as in my case, someone who was aware of her work, knew she was highly regarded, hadn't actually read much (if any) but that's about it. I'd never have had reason to look up things about her without running across someone specifically mentioning something. "Breendoggle", until I ran across it and wondered what that was about, meant absolutely nothing to me.

So there's no fault with people not knowing this, even now. The fault is with the people who did know about this who didn't say anything about it.

EDIT: And with those who do know about it and don't say anything now. Pretty much every time I see her in the future it's going to be "Oh, you mean serial abuser/rapist MZB?"

[vschanoes.livejournal.com]

In the depositions, the woman whose name I forget but who was MZB's former lover and assistant specifically describes Moira describing an instance of her mother sexually abusing her, about which she, the speaker, asked MZB, whose response was "children that age don't have erogenous zones."

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

Mea culpa. I either didn't read the whole thing or missed that bit.

Edit: here's the link, and MPR and trigger warnings on child abuse.

[joenotcharles.livejournal.com]

That's the link from James' most recent LJ post on the British PM discussing Thai labour laws.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

It's one thing to despise the people who had the information and denied it/didn't act on it, but it's over-egging the pudding to despise people who didn't know they should be looking for the information in the first place.

Do not put words in my mouth. "Not particularly convincing" doesn't equal "despise" on any level.

And though I was speaking mostly of regulars to James' journal, I find it extremely hard to believe that general fans would never Google MZB, and find, oh golly I dunno, one of the five results on the first page, including MZB's Wikipedia page, that mentions Breen and the abuse.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I'm actively defensive here, so pardon me for responding while defensive.

But, to explain my failure of knowing, the Goldin page is very explicit about Breen's culpability. It focuses on MZB's breathtaking enabling, but Goldin's page (and the timeline) don't mention MZB being a molester herself. And I never read Waters' deposition until now, because every time I try and read MZB's deposition, her absolutely breathtaking lack of insight and ability to excuse anything and everything renders me unable to have a brain for awhile.

So I do find it credible that one could know Breen directly molested people, but not MZB.

Edited because I don't know if a deposition is technically considered testimony.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I'm a general fan. I have never, to my knowledge, Googled the author of The Crystal Crown (Barbara Clough, I think?), or Susan Cooper, or any of a number of other authors I read in the 1970-1980s. I tend to Google authors when I'm currently reading them, or when I'm trying to figure out why they never wrote another book. I might Google James Blaylock to find out what he's up to, but I'm unlikely to Google Tim Powers, because I can tell what he's up to by the row on my shelf.

Which gets back to my key point -- it's perfectly reasonable and expected behavior to like books but not bother to look up the author.

[brooksmoses]

Huh. I remember vaguely liking the books, but even with authors whose works I actively pick up rather than just tend to notice and consider when I'm browsing bookstore shelves, it's never occurred to me to Google for them personally rather than for a list of the books they've written.

[joenotcharles.livejournal.com]

All of those specific links talk about her knowing about his molestations and covering them up; this link talks about her actively participating, which I didn't know before.

[graydon saunders (from livejournal.com)]

Leaving aside the plausibility of someone with a long record of local political effectiveness, let's call it, being as oblivious and inept as they portrayed themselves in those depositions, the willingness to cover it up when not themselves subject to coercion comes down to "thinks it's right" or "does worse" as a way to bet.

I didn't know specifics but felt it was clear from the way Dorothy Heydt talked about Marion Zimmer Bradley on rec.arts.sf.* on the rare occasions that happened that there was something dire back there somewhere.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

And that brings us round to the problem. Connected fans alluded, more-or-less vaguely, to MZB's history. Non-connected fans had no idea that conversation was going on. See also: "not safe in elevators" information passed on from experienced female writers to new female writers, always assuming the new writers were connected to the right people.

[seth ellis (from livejournal.com)]

Please, carry on, I don't mind at all or take it personally.

I was surprised at the number of people I saw (mostly on Facebook) who even didn't know about MZB's connivance in Breen's crimes. I suspect that that's a sign that being a longtime and devoted reader and being a fan are different things, and fannish clannishness did manage to keep a number of things out of mainstream awareness even if they were finally acknowledged in house, so to speak.

I myself didn't see any hard acknowledgement of MZB's own crimes, but then when I was looking into it I didn't push all that hard.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

" I suspect that that's a sign that being a longtime and devoted reader and being a fan are different things"

THIS. Exactly.

[seth ellis (from livejournal.com)]

I've been the former all my life, and have been tangentially aware of the ongoings of the latter only lately. I happen to have noticed and looked into MZB's history a couple of years ago, but I can easily imagine not having done so.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

I was surprised at the number of people I saw (mostly on Facebook) who even didn't know about MZB's connivance in Breen's crimes.

Right. And I'm surprised, too, given the location and amount of information available, making it easy to have overheard or stumbled across something even when not looking for it. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

I had halfway hoped what I said would be a springboard for a collective, "yeah, why DIDN'T we know?" discussion. Instead it's been a torrent of dull explanations -- as though I ever asked anyone to explain themselves to me -- and deliberate misreadings of what I said.

Yes, I do think it's plausible that fans kept things hidden, that SF/F fandom, even on the periphery, is the kind of culture where no one digs too far or asks too many questions because what's under the surface is so often really disturbing. Maybe it's indicative of a larger cultural issue that has nothing to do with fandom.

[seth ellis (from livejournal.com)]

There's another aspect of fannish culture, or at least I think it is, that's gone largely unremarked: tor.com posted a bland encomium, a published article for money, without the writer or the editor doing the least bit of due diligence. They should both be embarrassed, and apparently they are, but not to the extent of publicly acknowledging the oversight.

I call it fannish because tor.com's editorial identity, to the degree that it has one, is heavy on the fan-stroking and light on the research, which is made possible, I think, by the larger culture of fandom. Fanwank passing for thought pieces ought always to be professionally embarrassing, and not just when you accidentally praise a child molester.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

"Deliberate misreadings of what I said"?

I find it extremely hard to believe that general fans would never Google MZB, and find, oh golly I dunno, one of the five results on the first page, including MZB's Wikipedia page, that mentions Breen and the abuse.

People have explained why, yes, it's entirely possible to believe why someone wouldn't bother to google her. So it's not misreading you, it's you claiming it's all a torrent of dull explanations, when those explanations are why a casual fan wouldn't know.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Well, speaking only for myself, I've been kind of trying to figure out a) how I feel about all this, b) whether it actually makes me feel any different about her (answer: Yes, but I already thought she was an abuse-enabling, abuse-permitting, loathsome person), and c) everything surrounding that.

So, sorry I'm not living up to your desire to have a Larger Conversation.

Though actually, this seems /exactly/ typical of how individual people who are part of larger institutions deal with this kind of thing; some reel, some cling to details, some denigrate Person X instantly, some dig in their heels and don't believe it, and many more.

As to why didn't we know -- It is my experience, in both large and small installments of this kind of thing, that there was some awareness of it but it got buried because people are scared of knowing. And guilty.

As a smaller example, a year and a half before I went to college the first time, there was a "date rape"/year-long abusive relationship at my feminist-women's-college, in which, as is (even today) irritatingly typical, people 'chose sides' and basically ostracized the victim. (For awhile. And then they got a clue.) This got mostly-buried, to the extent that it was very hard to find out details about it, once I found out there'd been a problem. (I'm a little vague on details because this was 15 or so years ago, but you get the idea.)

I imagine that it's even harder when it's an icon of publishing who was (from what people have said) politically relevant in her physical area of fandom. (And outside that geographical locus, as well.)

(Edited to finish my first paragraph, oops.)

[(Anonymous)]

I have no idea why logging in is being so difficult.

Fwiw to the larger conversation, for me the process was this: I heard from someone that MZB had some dodgy attitudes, read The Catch Trap, and decided that yes she did. But I thought that was it - and quite bad enough.

From there to here have been several other points where I heard something, looked into it, thought I'd heard the worst, and then later heard more.

It is also true that when I heard even the first thing Breen was dead and MZB had no minors in her care and control: so I thought it was awful but also *over*.

Marna, again.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

"Right. And I'm surprised, too, given the location and amount of information available, making it easy to have overheard or stumbled across something even when not looking for it. It doesn't make a lot of sense."

Most people do not go Googling authors or reading up on their biographies.

Also, right now I can google "mzb bibliography" and "marion zimmer bradley bibliography" and see not a hint of a sexual abuse scandals on the first screen (i.e. without scrolling down) or in the first four entires -- including Wikipedia, since what was there a couple of days ago, now isn't.

[magedragonfire.livejournal.com]

This information isn't even particularly hard to find on a tangent. I haven't read anything written by Bradley herself, only a couple of the Sword and Sorceress anthologies that she edited. Some half-hearted Googling about those a few years ago led me to Bradley's part in Breen's atrocities pretty quickly. 'Sex abuse' didn't even have to be a key word to find it.

I hadn't found any indication then that she'd been molesting her own kids, though. When you think something can't get any more awful, welp...