The Foundation Trilogy: Part Two of Eight
Oct. 7th, 2012 11:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
james_davis_nicollFoundation: The Mayors
This is set twenty years after the previous episode. Salvor Hardin is still Mayor of Terminus, having taken power from the Encyclopedists a generation before but now he is himself beset by two challenges to his authority. One is from Sef Sermak's Actionists, an aggressive political party that favours Terminus carry out grand campaign of conquest on its neighbors. The external threat comes from Anacreon, whose Prince Regent Wienis has quite similar ideas as the Actionists, save that Wienis is planning his first conquest to be Terminus and its technicians.
One of Sermak's gripes is that the Four Kingdoms, Anacreon among them, have been technologically shored up by Terminus. As Hardin points out, no one of the Four Kingdoms can take Terminus for their own without the other three stopping them and all of the barbarian kingdoms are dependent on the Terminus-trained technicians to keep the very basic engines of their economies running. This all is covered with religious mummery to keep the barbarians from working out how the technology really works.
Wienis thinks he has a way around the apparent stalemate, by presenting a big enough threat to force the Foundation to hand over a recently discovered battleship whose possession he thinks will guarantee him victory. He is not much concerned with the religious issues raised by attacking the Foundation since he knows full well Scientism is nonsense (It is something of a sore point that his nephew, the future King Lepold I, has fallen for the cult but happily not only is Lepold easily led, he is clearly scheduled to have a fatal hat-fitting accident in the immediate future*)
Note the W in Wienis is pronounced like a V. Bloody Space Teutons.
Most of the story involves various people discussing the situations but it builds to the true purpose of the Foundation, which is to allow someone to smugly lecture another person about how insightful the speaker is and how it was they were able to see angles the other person did not. In this case, the speaker is Hardin and what he gets to point out is that supplying the technology means they control the technology and without that control, it is essentially impossible for Wienis to prevail.
I don't believe I am spoiling anything when I reveal someone kills themselves to escape Hardin's final lecture.
Of course Hardin does not have the last word because the greatest lecturer of all is Hari Seldon and Seldon has arranged matters so that not only will people hang on his every statement but nobody will be able to interrupt him because it has all been recorded in the dead past. Seldon explains to everyone what just happened and although he cannot tell them what the future holds does give some hints. Let us assume he did this to steer the Foundation in the right direction and not because he was ever so pleased with himself that he could not help but let some of his glorious plans slip out.
Some thoughts:
For someone who likes to say "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent," Hardin sure is willing to let other people commit violence and/or utter threats of violence on his behalf. He gets the barbarians to do this to each other to buy some time for Terminus and later on he manipulates other patsies into being Foundation's strong right arm. Perhaps the problem is not turning to it until things have progressed too far; for all of Wienis' bluster, he doesn't just burn Hardin down before he can speak and despite his nephew being one of the stupidest Royal Heirs ever to cause a regent to turn mind towards editing the line of succession, Lepold has not in fact fallen out of a window or been shot while hunting or been strangled by an assassin who confessed to being a Foundation agent before succumbing to the wounds he suffered while being captured.
It would be a little sad if Wienis really was Lepold's loving if somewhat scary uncle and he really was planning on helping his idiot nephew be the best king he could be (that being sort of king who does whatever Wienis suggests) and that the entire air Wienis gives of measuring his nephew for a coffin whenever they speak is merely due to what amounts to a speech impediment.
I notice that Hardin's friend Lee is willing to carry out the same sort of causeless midnight disappearances as the Imperial bureaucrats. One wonders what jobs Lee has carried out for Hardin while Hardin keeps his hands clean.
Say, since when is 52 old, Mr. Asimov?
* Well, clearly to everyone except Lepold himself. He really should be played by a young Hugh Laurie.
This is set twenty years after the previous episode. Salvor Hardin is still Mayor of Terminus, having taken power from the Encyclopedists a generation before but now he is himself beset by two challenges to his authority. One is from Sef Sermak's Actionists, an aggressive political party that favours Terminus carry out grand campaign of conquest on its neighbors. The external threat comes from Anacreon, whose Prince Regent Wienis has quite similar ideas as the Actionists, save that Wienis is planning his first conquest to be Terminus and its technicians.
One of Sermak's gripes is that the Four Kingdoms, Anacreon among them, have been technologically shored up by Terminus. As Hardin points out, no one of the Four Kingdoms can take Terminus for their own without the other three stopping them and all of the barbarian kingdoms are dependent on the Terminus-trained technicians to keep the very basic engines of their economies running. This all is covered with religious mummery to keep the barbarians from working out how the technology really works.
Wienis thinks he has a way around the apparent stalemate, by presenting a big enough threat to force the Foundation to hand over a recently discovered battleship whose possession he thinks will guarantee him victory. He is not much concerned with the religious issues raised by attacking the Foundation since he knows full well Scientism is nonsense (It is something of a sore point that his nephew, the future King Lepold I, has fallen for the cult but happily not only is Lepold easily led, he is clearly scheduled to have a fatal hat-fitting accident in the immediate future*)
Note the W in Wienis is pronounced like a V. Bloody Space Teutons.
Most of the story involves various people discussing the situations but it builds to the true purpose of the Foundation, which is to allow someone to smugly lecture another person about how insightful the speaker is and how it was they were able to see angles the other person did not. In this case, the speaker is Hardin and what he gets to point out is that supplying the technology means they control the technology and without that control, it is essentially impossible for Wienis to prevail.
I don't believe I am spoiling anything when I reveal someone kills themselves to escape Hardin's final lecture.
Of course Hardin does not have the last word because the greatest lecturer of all is Hari Seldon and Seldon has arranged matters so that not only will people hang on his every statement but nobody will be able to interrupt him because it has all been recorded in the dead past. Seldon explains to everyone what just happened and although he cannot tell them what the future holds does give some hints. Let us assume he did this to steer the Foundation in the right direction and not because he was ever so pleased with himself that he could not help but let some of his glorious plans slip out.
Some thoughts:
For someone who likes to say "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent," Hardin sure is willing to let other people commit violence and/or utter threats of violence on his behalf. He gets the barbarians to do this to each other to buy some time for Terminus and later on he manipulates other patsies into being Foundation's strong right arm. Perhaps the problem is not turning to it until things have progressed too far; for all of Wienis' bluster, he doesn't just burn Hardin down before he can speak and despite his nephew being one of the stupidest Royal Heirs ever to cause a regent to turn mind towards editing the line of succession, Lepold has not in fact fallen out of a window or been shot while hunting or been strangled by an assassin who confessed to being a Foundation agent before succumbing to the wounds he suffered while being captured.
It would be a little sad if Wienis really was Lepold's loving if somewhat scary uncle and he really was planning on helping his idiot nephew be the best king he could be (that being sort of king who does whatever Wienis suggests) and that the entire air Wienis gives of measuring his nephew for a coffin whenever they speak is merely due to what amounts to a speech impediment.
I notice that Hardin's friend Lee is willing to carry out the same sort of causeless midnight disappearances as the Imperial bureaucrats. One wonders what jobs Lee has carried out for Hardin while Hardin keeps his hands clean.
Say, since when is 52 old, Mr. Asimov?
* Well, clearly to everyone except Lepold himself. He really should be played by a young Hugh Laurie.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:57 am (UTC)Shadowishly-motivated, nigh-omniscient figure with visions of a Great Destiny for the poor mortals who strive to satisfy his commandments of How The Universe Really Works, grand novel organizing scheme that reduces the complexities of human society to Easily Grasped Equations of Science, scenario set up so the people working to his satisfaction will nevertheless get lectures on how This Is What You Must Really Be Doing And Why Science Says You Must ...
Has anyone tried doing a comparison between Hari Seldon and John W Campbell?
I can't help noticing that the version of Hari Seldon shown in the prequels, after Asimov stopped seeing Campbell as a father figure (and after Campbell was safely dead), was actually someone people didn't want to punch in the face any more than they wanted to punch any other math major.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 05:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 05:50 am (UTC)I think you're typing "Seldon" when you're thinking "Hardin" a couple places here.
Foundation is the toughest reread in the Asimov canon for me. I liked it so much when I was 10, but...
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 06:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 06:56 am (UTC)Also, when Hardin cuts the power to Anacreon, unlike Michael Rennie, he doesn't make exceptions for hospitals. One wonders how many people Mr. Non-Violence murdered in that moment.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 01:54 pm (UTC)(Why is a a second Empire good, again?)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 03:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 06:47 pm (UTC)Bruce
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 07:28 pm (UTC)Assuming you do, here are a few possibilities:
* Don't use your economic power to force a new religion on the people of the Four Kingdoms.
* Don't use said religion to prop up dictators -- especially when they're the exact same dictators you claim were plotting to take over your world.
* Don't institute a totalitarian regime that keeps the people in ignorance.
* Don't force the Four Kingdoms into economic slavery. (Notice that this is far worse than what Hardin claimed Anacreon was planning, which was a simple land-grab on a planet where most of the land was unused.)
* Do use your economic influence to encourage democratic reforms, starting with the establishment of parliaments, free press, and economic liberty.
If the US could turn Japan into a peaceful, democratic nation in twenty years, you'd think a self-proclaimed genius like Salvor Hardin could do it too. But no, he chose the economic slavery and cultural imperialist approach.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 08:14 pm (UTC)To put it more concisely - you're very wrong about the facts on the ground.
Now. Care to try again? Maybe read the story to see what really happened before offering such strong opinions?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 08:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:12 pm (UTC)"A completely unproductive world, then -- and practically unoccupied at that. Well, you might pay with land." (Anacreonian)
...
"I merely gave him rope and let him talk. You’ll notice that he managed to stumble out with Anacreon’s real intentions -- that is, the parceling up of Terminus into landed estates. Of course, I don’t intend to let that happen." (Hardin)
Not that you're wrong, about Hardin's manipulations.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:34 pm (UTC)----begin----
Hardin felt weary. He broke in: "What is your proposition, your eminence?"
The sub-prefect seemed quite ready to stop fencing in favor of more direct statements. He said briskly: "It seems perfectly obvious that, since Terminus cannot defend itself, Anacreon must take over the job for its own sake. You understand we have no desire to interfere with internal administration–"
"Uh-huh," grunted Hardin dryly.
"–but we believe that it would be best for all concerned to have Anacreon establish a military base upon the planet."
"And that is all you would want – a military base in some of the vast unoccupied territory – and let it go at that?"
"Well, of course, there would be the matter of supporting the protecting forces."
Hardin's chair came down on all four, and his elbows went forward on his knees. "Now we're getting to the nub. Let's put it into language. Terminus is to be a protectorate and to pay tribute."
"Not tribute. Taxes. We're protecting you. You pay for it."
Pirenne banged his hand on the chair with sudden violence. "Let me speak, Hardin. Your eminence, I don't care a rusty half-credit coin for Anacreon, Smyrno, or all your local politics and petty wars. I tell you this is a State-supported tax-free institution."
"State-supported? But we are the State, Dr. Pirenne, and we're not
supporting." Pirenne rose angrily. "Your eminence, I am the direct representative of–"
"–his august majesty, the Emperor," chorused Anselm haut Rodric sourly, "And I am the direct representative of the King of Anacreon. Anacreon is a lot nearer, Dr. Pirenne."
----end----
Dr. Pirenne, btw, is the head of the Encyclopediasts.
Now I'll say it: Read.The.Book.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 08:23 pm (UTC)Something tells me you missed out on all that well-meaning "We'll use our power to do good by reforming non-democratic institutions in other countries" in our not-too-distant USian history, and what happened as a consequence.
If you've got the sincere inclination to see what happens when outsiders of good intent try to engage in nation-building, I suggest you start by reading Grahame Greene's "The Quiet American".
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:00 pm (UTC)And, yes, democracy building can fail spectacularly, but we also know it can work. Which makes it better than enslaving four star systems with a deliberate program of cultural hegemony. Or do you believe that the people of the Four Kingdoms lost the right to self government because of the action of their dictators -- dictators whom Hardin was willing to keep in place so long as it forwarded the Foundation's interest.
I'm sorry, the whole damn book is a paean to imperialism and manifest destiny.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:37 pm (UTC)Then come back when you have an informed opinion.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 11:02 pm (UTC)You have not even responded to my overall point about the Foundation's actions towards the Four Kingdoms are nothing more than imperialism, nor shown that expecting the alleged good guys to use their technological and economic advantages as leverage to encourage the kingdoms towards democracy is more absurd than Asimov's, "And then everyone converted to a new religion based upon nuclear power." I mean, on the one hand you have something that's happened within living memory, and on the other you have a geek power fantasy where the Schmot Guys can make up any non-sense and the common folks are dumb enough to believe it.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 11:46 pm (UTC)That being said, I make no secret of the fact that I'm unimpressed with the results of well-intentioned nation-building at this point in time. Give me healthy self-interest any day.
Just so long as the self interest is frank and explicit - "up-front", as we used to say back in the day. And aren't Asimov's protagonists nothing if not up-front in this series of interlinked stories? Let the audience decide for themselves if this is a good thing, or if whether it's good or bad is even an appropriate discussion point.
[1]This is something I actually have to explicitly say at this late date in the history of intertubes discourse?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 09:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 01:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 02:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 03:40 pm (UTC)But more centrally, for someone like Hardin, if he can outplay you into making you use violence, well, you're incompetent, after all. A tool. (Literally and figuratively.)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 03:49 pm (UTC)I suppose if you'd done as much in your life as that generation had by their 20s, and lived to talk about it, you probably had a distorted view of this?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 06:00 pm (UTC)Second, that's life expectancy at birth, which includes infant and child mortality dragging the number down. (in the US in 1960 this wasn't a large effect for the US population as a whole, but it's worth mentioning, especially when considering whether long-lived people were exceptional before the 20th century, or in less-developed countries.)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 07:14 pm (UTC)It doesn't seem to be all that remarkable provided you avoided the obvious medical aliments that would hit you earlier in life... that or an STD.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-09 01:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-09 10:04 am (UTC)- Syd
no subject
Date: 2012-10-09 03:59 pm (UTC)He got it in a blood transfusion during heart surgery (like Arthur Ashe and Paul Gann of Proposition 13 fame). They'd have been able to figure out who the infected donor was.
The heart attack that led Asimov to have the bypass surgery occurred in 1977. I remember that, because it prevented him from giving the commencement address at my college graduation. The bypass operation itself was six years later.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 07:08 pm (UTC)That said, historically speaking there really is nothing all that exceptional about people living to 70 or 80. Just take a tour of an old graveyard in England or Ireland. There are a lot of people who died quite young but you'll find a pretty straight forward mix of people who died in their 70s and 80s.
People routinely living to 90 and 100 was exceptional.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-09 05:48 pm (UTC)http://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html
From 1940-1960, the odds of a young man surviving to age 65 went up by 6 percent (and 9 percent for women! I'm guessing this has to do with obstetrics.) Mind you, I think these numbers are computed from static snapshots of the population in whatever year, like life expectancies.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 04:40 pm (UTC)[1]Shamelessly cribbed from my daughter's Quotes for Nerds.
What´s old?
Date: 2015-10-28 07:38 pm (UTC)But another howler:
"Wienis' progress was slow. At almost every step, he had to pass a kindly sentence with some revered noble whose grandfather had helped Lepold's grandfather brigandize the kingdom and had received a dukedom therefor.
And then he disentangled himself from the last uniformed peer"
Lepold is 15 or 16. (The text is not specific whether the coronation is at midnight in the end of birthday, or midnight in the beginning of birthday)
Lepold is a god. He is worshipped, revered, venerated. But are other teenage nobles "revered"? If they are even peers. Lepold is an orphan, but this needs explanation.
Hardin brigandized Foundation 30 years ago, with help of Yohan Lee, but they are very much alive.
It´s unremarkable that Lepold´s grandfather is dead (as are all 5 Trustees). It is remarkable, but explained, that Lepold´s father is dead. Wienis is alive and although grey haired, in his late forties (because he had been a teenager 30 years before). Wienis´ two arrogant sons are apparently slightly older than Lepold, probably early twenties.
The bulk of Anacreon´s peerage should have been the generation of Wienis - sons, not grandsons of the dukes who had brigandized the kingdom 30 years ago. With a smattering of revered nobles who were the generation of Hardin and of Anselm haut Rodric. And another smattering of orphans in Lefkin´s generation - but would you call these "revered"?