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Feb. 21st, 2012 01:48 am
james_davis_nicoll: (Default)
[personal profile] james_davis_nicoll
The demands of a free populace, too, are very seldom harmful to liberty, for they are due either to the populace being oppressed or to the suspicious that it is going to be oppressed...
and, should these impressions be false, a remedy is provided in the public platform on which some man of standing can get up, appeal to the crowd, and show that it is mistaken. And though, as Tully remarks, the populace may be ignorant, it is capable of grasping the truth and readily yields when a man, worthy of confidence, lays the truth before it.
Anyone who studies present and ancient affairs will easily see how in all cities and all peoples there still exist, and have always existed, the same desires and passions. Thus, it is an easy matter for him who carefully examines past events to foresee future events in a republic and to apply the remedies employed by the ancients, or, if old remedies cannot be found, to devise new ones based upon the similarity of the events.

Date: 2012-02-21 09:27 am (UTC)
zeborah: Zebra against a barcode background, walking on the word READ (read)
From: [personal profile] zeborah
Such essays are adorable in the young; more worrying in those who have actual power. One gets the impression that the author has as yet engaged in only a superficial study of "present and ancient affairs", to think this an easy matter.

Date: 2012-02-21 10:26 am (UTC)
caper_est: caper_est, the billy goat (Default)
From: [personal profile] caper_est
And when written by Old Nick, such essays are also frankly suspect.

Date: 2012-02-21 10:25 am (UTC)
ellarien: Blue/purple pansy (Default)
From: [personal profile] ellarien
Hah. I was off by 1500 years or so on my estimate of when that was written.

Date: 2012-02-21 11:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neowolf2.livejournal.com
Gross damn fool optimism has been around for a long time, hasn't it?

Date: 2012-02-21 11:27 am (UTC)
ext_6388: Avon from Blake's 7 fails to show an emotion (R U SRS)
From: [identity profile] fridgepunk.livejournal.com
Anyone who studies present and ancient affairs will easily see how in all cities and all peoples there still exist, and have always existed, the same desires and passions.

Who are you calling a pedophile!?

Date: 2012-02-21 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
I wanted to figure out where this was from, so I googled the text. Which worked. But the terrifying thing was, the page that it brought me to? The TV Tropes entry on the work.

DANGEROUS! I managed to close it before I read it, though, so I'm okay.

Date: 2012-02-21 12:43 pm (UTC)
seawasp: (Default)
From: [personal profile] seawasp
The third entry down was this Blog entry.

This shows Google's adaptive search at work. I suspect that someone who was a classical scholar would have a classical source show up first.

Date: 2012-02-21 12:47 pm (UTC)
ellarien: Blue/purple pansy (Default)
From: [personal profile] ellarien
I had this entry show up first. Second was wikiquotes. So yes, adaptive search at work; I've mostly managed to steer clear of TV Tropes.

Date: 2012-02-21 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nathan helfinstine (from livejournal.com)
Google's algorithm loves "freshness" so this article might be popping upwards for everybody. This blog post was second for me, with TVTropes being #7, despite my love of that site. I suspect the issue is how much of the total text up above is plugged into Google's query box.

Date: 2012-02-22 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scott-sanford.livejournal.com
For me James was the second and third Google result. The dangerous site was down at number eight, which suggests that Google thinks I spend more time on high-brow philosophical websites than reading about the subtle dramatic themes of 1980s cartoon shows...

Date: 2012-02-21 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jhetley.livejournal.com
Ah, but where is Niccolò going to find a free populace? Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

Date: 2012-02-21 02:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ilya187.livejournal.com
Sounds like Kant's ideas of how populations in democracies behave. Although Kant was even more optimistic.

Date: 2012-02-21 03:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mmcirvin.livejournal.com
I believe that any viable system of government has to take into account the obvious inability of the masses to vote wisely and without influence from charlatans. That's why only I and my circle of obviously superior friends deserve to run things.

Date: 2012-02-21 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schizmatic.livejournal.com
Spoken like an engineer! :D

Date: 2012-02-21 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
"I believe that any viable system of government has to take into account the obvious inability of"

...Any human being to rule wisely and well.

...Any bureaucrat to put the interests of the people before his own aggrandizement. His pension, of course, is inviolate.

...Any bureaucracy to accurately pass all the necessary information up the chain of command, and to pass intelligible orders back down.

Date: 2012-02-22 01:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com
Does this apply to corporate bureaucracies and the interests of shareholders?

Date: 2012-02-22 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
Absolutely.

The difference is that if the corporate bureaucracy screws up far enough, the company either fixes itself or goes bankrupt.

Government bureaurats screw up, they just write more regs that make even less sense, and raise taxes.

We now have a situation where even badly run or outright fraudulent companies are so closely coupled to the government, it's hard to tell the difference. "Too big to fail."

Date: 2012-02-22 05:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/krin_o_o_/
The difference is that if the corporate bureaucracy screws up far enough, the company either fixes itself or goes bankrupt.

Nope. As previously proven and demonstrated in the field: when sufficiently large, they do not go bankrupt. They convince the political bureaucracy to bail them out through the exploitation of the fears of the conservative base.

Date: 2012-02-21 04:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/krin_o_o_/
"And though, as Tully remarks, the populace may be ignorant, it is capable of grasping the truth and readily yields when a man, worthy of confidence, lays the truth before it."
- Machiavelli, "Discourses on Livy" (1517)

Or if the populace is the Tea Party and incapable of yielding to an articulate educated man who challenges their notions of what is worthy of confidence by the accident of being a negro.

- krin
Edited Date: 2012-02-21 04:31 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-02-21 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
The Tea Party refused to vote for a negro? Really?

Not the "accident" of being raised by radical, anti-American socialists?

Not the "accident" of being political product extruded by the Chicago machine?

Not the "accident" of being a blank mask? No test scores, academic papers, or law review articles, and a Senate voting record consisting mostly of "Present" over the course of a mere half term?

Are you sure it's not the other way around, that people voted for Puff the Magic Negro, rather than demanding an actual leader?

Date: 2012-02-21 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
Gah.

Try, "...refused to vote for a man because of the accident of his being a negro?"

Date: 2012-02-21 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ilya187.livejournal.com
In 2008 I voted for McCain for precisely the reasons you listed. This year I will definitely vote for Obama if anyone other than Romney is GOP nominee, and possibly even if Romney is. In part because Obama is not a blank mask any more, and I rather like (to my surprise) what he did over last three years.

Date: 2012-02-21 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
I'd be very interested to know what you like about him.

Date: 2012-02-21 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ilya187.livejournal.com
Mostly the fact that Obama actually works WITH other countries as opposed to expecting them to follow US lead, and being stunned when they refuse to do so. Also the fact he actually has an inkling to things called "energy policy" and "industrial policy", although not nearly as much as I'd like him to have. I rather like his space policy too. Do not really care about his health care bill because it accomplishes almost nothing, but it's not like Republicans offered something better.

I only came to this over last couple years, but yes, I think time has come for national health care system. Somehow the rest of the world is not scared of it the much of US is.

Of course, compared to Santorum or Gingrich, I would vote for a corpse. A corpse would not screw anything up.

Date: 2012-02-21 11:48 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
That sort of depends on the corpse's spokespersons, no?

Bruce

Date: 2012-02-22 02:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com
Actually Congress's health care bill ACA (Obama didn't have that much to do with it; Congress writes laws, people) will accomplish quite a lot in getting health insurance to Americans, particularly those not covered by employer group plans, or those currently covered by crap plans. It's at heart identical to Massachusetts reform, which I currently benefit from.

It doesn't do much to control costs, though it does do some things, more than Massachusetts did. Nor does it reform how health care is administered and billed and paid for; it just reforms people being able to get health care. But that's a huge first step.

Date: 2012-02-22 08:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scott-sanford.livejournal.com
While concerned about his near total lack of experience back in 2008, President Obama's track record since shows that he does seem consistently concerned with doing something useful for the country and working with others - both in DC and abroad. (This does not always work.) Since the other candidates seem to be happy to ride their various ideologies roughshod over human rights or the nation's well-being, yes, I'll settle for the guy who's at least trying to point the cat herd in the right direction more often than not.

Date: 2012-02-22 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com
'the "accident" of being raised by radical, anti-American socialists?'

Uh-huh.

Date: 2012-02-22 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] felila.livejournal.com
Radical, anti-American socialists? You mean his grandmother the bank vice-president?

Date: 2012-02-21 05:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refugee50s.livejournal.com
"The demands of a free populace, too, are very seldom harmful to liberty."

One of the chief reasons for this is that in general free men cannot exert influence on the scale of the state. You want to cause some serious damage, pass a bunch of laws meant to protect people from themselves, implement those laws via a blind and stupid bureaucracy, enforce them with the police and military, and fund the whole putrid mess by taxing everybody who makes more than a subsistence wage (and in many cases, even them).

Date: 2012-02-22 01:51 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
...And then hand it over to Republicans. :)

Bruce

Date: 2012-02-24 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] erikagillian.livejournal.com
I was going to say and take it back from the Republicans and fix it *again*.

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