I don't understand this really

[james_davis_nicoll]

But apparently white people whose relatives were progressives back when that was dangerous get full credits for that even if they had no choice in the decisions or actions involved (In my case, because I was not born yet). Yay me! I can claim at least two generations of social liberals on my father's side and while I have never done anything of note in this field [1], at least I have not been an active impediment.

I understand that those people who were denied the basic rights due any human are supposed to be grateful to that handful of oppressors who somehow managed to meet the minimum level of human decency and who worked to mitigate some of the obvious social inequities of the time. Will the oppressed know to bask in the pearly white glow of my good luck in picking my relatives or will I need to hand out cards announcing that that my ancestors weren't the complete assholes most of the rest of their social class were at the time?

What else is covered by this policy? Can I claim to be an important engineer because my father and grandfather made notable (but distinct) contributions to that field?


1: I have voted for politicians who grudgingly did the right thing once the polls made it obvious which way the public leaned and after the courts made it clear they had no real choice in the matter.

Comments

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

I feel I suffer from lack of context. What's this "full credit" stuff?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Progressive credentials are apparently cards you can play during discussions to trump other people's interpretations of your comments.

[nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com]

YES YOU CAN


be the Will Shetterly of engineering.

[realinterrobang.livejournal.com]

I'm willing to bet that, given where and when they came from, half my ancestors had never even seen a non-white person until after arriving in Canada. Those ancestors, at least, can't be held responsible for the oppression some of their contemporaries inflicted on non-white people, being spatially separated from any opportunity to do the same things. The other half, not so much.

I'm still trying to figure out whether white privilege trumps the kind of ablism you experience when you're visibly disabled, but not being a visibly disabled POC, I'm hard-pressed to tell. I suspect it's situational; in some cases, an able-bodied POC would do better than I would, and in others not.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I'm willing to bet that, given where and when they came from, half my ancestors had never even seen a non-white person until after arriving in Canada.

Really? Not even the odd native?

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

Lamarckian engineering knowledge also means that because of your parents' inventions, mistakes in your math homework don't count. Automatic A in the class! The airplanes you build might not get very far, unfortunately.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Lamarckian engineering knowledge also means that because of your parents' inventions, mistakes in your math homework don't count.

I did once get my father to help me with my geometry homework and I can assure you having advanced degrees in engineering help less than you may expect.

[pauldrye.livejournal.com]

One of the other students in my high school science class was a grandnephew of Frederick Banting. Never met a bigger dummy in my life.

[lostwanderfound.livejournal.com]

Lamarckian engineering knowledge

I've been getting annoyed lately by folks claiming that recent findings in epigenetics mean that Lamarck was right all along.

[daedala.livejournal.com]

He's really not worth engaging you know.

(OK, I'm making assumptions about where this snark is directed, but I am mean and don't care.)

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

White people, you so crazy. I guess he's following in the line of intellectual descent of Ignatius Donnelly and Jesse Ventura.

I do have to say, the recrudescence of Euro superiority regarding American grappling with racism is a little grating too. The last time someone made a Third Reich inspired gesture directed at me in the States was 1982. The last time in Europe, 2006. The last time I got the hairy eyeball in Europe because of my phenotype, October 2008. (This cleared up almost instantaneously once they saw my passport.)

[anzhalyumitethe.livejournal.com]

Lyuda made comments about this. Not that she gets racist comments in Europe, but back in Europe that they seem to have an even stronger sense of OTHER...and she didn't mean it as a compliment. She notes that Ukrainians are among the worst.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I have to say, yes, but...

If we have to take the blame/shame for what some ancestors did, we should get the credit/pride for what other ancestors did. I don't see how it's rational to have one but not the other.

For myself, I accept neither pride nor shame for anything anyone else does.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

If we have to take the blame/shame for what some ancestors did,

I think the idea there is if you've benefited from past or present inequities, even if the benefit is a lack of certain kinds of negative benefits like never having been pulled over for driving while black or having had your qualifications questioned on the basis that your sort of people use non-meritocratic methods to gain credentials, it's considered polite to be vaguely embarrassed by this or at least aware of the situation.

[seawasp]

I don't accept any guilt for anything I, personally, did not do or directly contribute to doing. So I don't accept guilt for oppression of blacks, asians, gays, women, etc., etc. What my ancestors did has no relevance to what *I* do, did, or will do. If I ever successfully oppress Stupid People Who Shouldn't Be Driving Cars, bullies, and Usenet Posters Foolish Enough to Disagree With Me, I'll take the credit, though.

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

But on the other hand, if you're a white person, particularly a white male person, in modern America, then you live in a system that benefits you and penalizes non-white-males in a variety of ways, some subtle and some less so.

"Guilt" may not be the appropriate response to this -- as you say, you didn't create the system, and neither did I -- but acknowledging that it exists is an appropriate, I would argue required, response. And of course an awareness of what current actions you and I do, or don't do, that either strengthen or weaken that system.

(On a related topic, my "favorite" conservative-pundit response to Obama's election so far is, "At least those damned liberals will finally have to admit that there's no more racism in America.")

[redbird]

Right. Sure.

If progressive credentials mean anything, they're from what you yourself have done in the past. Pete Seeger has progressive credentials. Joseph Lowery has progressive credentials. (Just easy examples that are on my mind recently.)

[robotnik.livejournal.com]

I think the real question is: what are we doing right now that our great-great-grandchildren will be proud/ashamed of? Because obviously the future is always right.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

One of the more hideous flame wars on rasfw was trigged by that question.

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

Huh. I admit I take a certain pride in being Fourth Generation Union ... but I also have a deep gratitude for that, and I didn't feel that way until I got my own first Union Card.

I mean, it's nice to have had some good examples in the family, it contributes to one's education - but you do have to, you know, live up to it.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

I don't understand this arithmetic. I thought you got automatic points for being Canadian, in almost any controversy. Are you talking about additional points, or alternative points?

Of course, I lost any chance at Canadian Points when my grandparents emigrated.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

This would be in addition, I assume.

[oh6.livejournal.com]

I don't believe even online diploma sites will suggest that you can earn your degree based on your ancestor's life experience, but perhaps they haven't thought of it.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

It _is_ the logical inverse of blaming people for what their ancestors did, so if one is valid, the other one MUST be. (/sarcasm, yes, I know both are equally illogical)

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

Which is more important? Can I still count as a liberal by my own actions, or am I automatically counted as a bigot because of the bigotry of my ancestors? (Not just opposing women's suffrage and the civil rights movement before I was born, but my mother's ongoing racism and religious bigotry up until last month.)

Oh, are we talking about Will Shetterly? I don't think of him as a reliable source of information, even for simple verifiable facts like whether or not it's raining. Do you know of any reason I should?

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

God bless you.

[nextian.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I totally win, then! I live in San Francisco, where we get thousands of bazillions of points every day for our pure progressive perfect hearts, so that + my parents cheering on the Civil Rights movement - my grandma hating black people = I'M TOTALLY NOT RACIST NOW

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

Will, it would be good if you could continue the good fight. It seems to me right now that you are doing all you can to discredit yourself, your past, and your cause, by the style of debate that you choose. I mean, Will - what parade did you ever see carrying a banner that went "Nyah-Nyah-Nyah!". Yet is seems that in a lot of posts you just aim at scoring points. Look at this, for example: Implied sneer, statement of your credentials, implied sneer. Who is the target of your message, and what is the message? And how exactly is it going to help? All that you really gain from this post is a feeling of 'THERE! THAT'LL SHOW THEM!" But it doesn't.

[marydell.livejournal.com]

I'd say you understand it perfectly. Those credentials also entitle you to explain a lot of things to a lot of people who think they already know stuff. For the sake of their betterment.

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

Exhibit A: Mitt Romney trying to say that his dad marched with Martin Luther King. (Bonus: Mitt saying that while actively hewing to the LDS line about GLBT rights.)