Question of the day

[james_davis_nicoll]

Should SFWA consider opening membership to writers of comic books and graphic novels?

[Wow, that was a dull way to frame that. Please add "Why or why not?]

Inspired by a discussion on one of the blogs that I read regularly, which I will not name for the moment so that people will not run over there and have their reactions influenced by the discussions that have already occured.

Comments

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

Is it already open to writers of other non-strictly-text media, such as screenwriters?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

It doesn't look like it to me. (http://www.sfwa.org/org/qualify.htm)

[tceisele.livejournal.com]

But aren't screenwriters covered by Membership Requirement C, "One professionally produced full length dramatic script, with credits acceptable to the Membership Committee"?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Head > desk

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[jkahane.livejournal.com]

I would say definitely not. However, I could see where a comics or graphic novel book writer might qualify if they have written a speculative fiction novel or three.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Part of me says yes, why not?

The other part says no, clean up our own backyard first. There's no sense in expanding to be of dubious value in two fields.

[sclerotic-rings.livejournal.com]

Hear hear.

[aries-jordan.livejournal.com]

Gut reaction: sure, if the subject matter of the comic/graphic novel is science fiction. (However that's being defined lately). It might shake things up.

[jeffreyab.livejournal.com]

Or Fantasy.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

Hard to say. What sort of pay grade does one have to get to be a professional graphic novelist? Does inking count?

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

If it's a writers' association, I would imagine that anyone who writes a comic book script or story would be eligible, but not someone whose contribution is solely in the visual aspect (art, inking, storyboarding, etc.).

[avram]

Just like you can qualify by writing the screenplay for a movie, but not by being, say, the cinematographer.

[rezendi.livejournal.com]

This doesn't really answer your question, but I strongly suspect comics writers would be better off with their own association. Both because SFWA is so messed up and because the two businesses are actually quite different.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

If the genre the writers of the graphic novels and/or comic books are working in is science fiction or fantasy, and they're selling to paying markets of value comparable to the requirements for novelists, why not?

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

But what if the genre they're working in is superheroes? Written (words-only) superhero fiction is usually lumped in with sf or fantasy; but in comics it's a genre.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I think it's a sub-genre in writing, too, or becoming one. I've seen enough original superhero anthologies around.

[daev.livejournal.com]

No. I agree with rezendi. SFWA is an organization with the purpose of representing professional writers' interests with respect to SF/Fantasy publishers. It's not an elite rewards club whose membership requirements should be confused with artistic merit or inclusiveness. The natures of the SF publishing industry and the comics business (specifically Marvel and DC) are different enough that comics writers are better served by forming their own guild or union. Similarly, video game authors don't belong, not because "games aren't real literature," but because SFWA has no particular leverage in the computer software industry.

[avram]

Except, there's a good deal of crossover between the two fields. Neil Gaiman is probably the most obvious example of someone well-known for working in both comics and prose, but there are writers known primarily for their comics work who've also written prose fiction (Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Elliot S! Maggin, Gardner Fox), and those known to us mostly for their prose work who've worked in comics (Harlan Ellison, Samuel Delany, Alfred Bester). And many more.

And there's crossover at the editorial level, too. Teresa Nielsen Hayden worked as an editor both at Tor Books and at Valiant Comics.

In short, I'm not convinced that SFWA has any less leverage in the comics industry than it does in the film industry.

[montoya.livejournal.com]

There's crossover of membership, but maybe not of concerns. Nielsen Hayden or Gaiman may know how both comics and prose publishing work, but most people in SFWA won't, and if they have to interact with comics publishers, they might just end up clomping around like morons inadvertantly.

[ailsaek.livejournal.com]

And yet another "Sure, why not, but why would they want to?"

[nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com]

More SF publishers, such as Tor and Del Rey, are getting into the comics game. Why would an author who gets $5000 in advance from Tor be more of a pro and more in need of assistance than an author who gets a $25,000 advance from Tor for a comic script.

Really, the question is, "Do we need genre-based writer organizations?" and the answer is no. MWA, RWA, SFWA, HWA, International Thriller Writers, WWA, et al. should all combine into one group with different interest groups within to deal with awards and whatnot.

A zillion years ago, when there were 100 publishers in New York, the various groups made sense. Now that there are a small handful of publishers, with formerly existing genre publishers simply being a desk in an office somewhere right next to the desk that represents a former competitor, the orgs should merge as well in order to be a meaningful force.

[sclerotic-rings.livejournal.com]

Great idea, if you convince the competing egos to merge as well. Oh, former RWA members would just adore having Andrew Burt telling them that he's their newest representative.

[nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com]

Indeed, there are many more people eager to preside over various sets of ruins than there are ready to do the unsexy work of harmonization and unification, but after the current crop of orgs collapse into black holes of their own irrelevancy, there will be room for a more inclusive org to emerge.

[julesjones]

Oh god. I have enough nightmares about RWA without adding *that* one.

[amberite.livejournal.com]

That actually does suggest an answer to the question. SFWA's current membership requirements are based on a list of accepted publishers; it would make sense from there for a comics author who made sales to an SF publisher to join.

(If they wanted to.)

[nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com]

Indeed. There are legit complications (the artist for example and any ownership stakes he or she may have) and approved publishers also publish non-SF. Also, the approved publishers have many and varied programs, not just SF, but I don't think anyone actually does an aesthetic means-test on the content of the books. I suppose someone with a Tor/Forge mystery book would have no problem joining SFWA, for example. (Not that I think he or she should have a problem.)

[roseembolism.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, if Carla Speed McNeil's "Finder" doesn't qualify for awards as an excellent SF novel, then there's no point in having awards ceremonies.

On the other hand, that would mean that the comic writers would be associated with SFWA...and what did they do to YOU that they deserve that?

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Oh, God, it's escaped!

(This occupied weeks of phosphors and dump-truck (dumpster?) loads of electrons on a sff.net newsgroup.)

I'm a "big tent" type of person and think we should, because lots of stuff gets published in those formats and including those writers in SFWA could include our leverage with publishers, etc, etc, etc.

Plus, you get more readers if you don't put all that tedious word stuff in.

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

Perhaps SFWA should narrow its membership criteria rather than broadening it. Go back to requiring yearly renewal of credentials. Only credit work which meets a strict definition of "hard science" for science fiction or "hard magic" for fantasy. Take points off if a story contains scientific or magical errors.

Make it really rigorous, and there will be no one to cause trouble in SFWA.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Except that you have stirred up a bar-brawl with the persistence of the great red spot by mentioning "requal"...

[woodrunner.livejournal.com]

I would suggest that there's no restriction against their being members (though I'm not in SFWA and wouldn't know) based on the fact that writing for comics is essentially done in script format. Unless you write the Marvel method, which is altogether different.

But personally, having worked in the medium (however briefly), if I had the choice, I'd want to be part of an organization that doesn't exclude the artists. No comic book gets made without artists.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I don't see why not, if the comics in question are sf or fantasy (which most non-indie American comics are.) However, I am not sure what SFWA has to offer to comic writers.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm not a member, so I hope my comment counts.
Most certainly, of course. The world and the written world is changing.

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

I suggest that there is a category error in the question as posed, because "science fiction" (or "speculative fiction" or whatever the SF in SFWA supposedly stands for) is a genre, while "graphic novel" is a medium.

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

That being said, I think that SF readers being who we often are this question will likely be debated on the grounds, "Should the definition of this term properly apply to that thing?"

Probably the more fruitful debate would be, "Does SFWA have anything to offer writers of comic books and graphic novels, and would adding those writers benefit other members of SFWA?"

[jeffreyab.livejournal.com]

I say let the writers in.

A good example would be "Planetes" or "The Watchmen" or much of Alan Moore's other work.

Mainstream comic books bundled as a graphic novel are more questionable.

A good question mark would be works like Josh Whedon's "Serenity" comics which continue his work in television and movie scripts.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

Let us summarize.

Under current rules, allowed to be members of SFWA:
Corey Mandell and J. D Shapiro (who brought us "Battlefield Earth" on film).
Andrew Burt.

Not allowed to be members (ignoring non-comic work):
Masamune Shirow. Anyone who claims Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed aren't science fiction needs their head examined.

[andrewwheeler.livejournal.com]

As Glenn Haumann pointed out a few months ago, the guy who adapted V For Vendetta into a screenplay is both eligible for SFWA membership and was nominated for a Nebula for that work, while Alan Moore, who wrote the V For Vendetta graphic novel to begin with, isn't eligible either way.

I suggest that SFWA should either decide that they're purely for prose writers -- in which case they should stop with the sloppy tongue-kisses of Hollywood, eliminate the "Script" Nebula and quit allowing screenplays to be a qualification for membership -- or realize that comics writers may not be as glamorous as Ron Fucking Moore, but what they do and how they interact with their publishers is a hell of a lot closer to prose SFF.

To put it another way: should Brian K. Vaughan be a member of SFWA for writing Ex Machina, or for being yet another dink in the writer's room for Lost?

But I am a known cynic and grump.

[t-guy.livejournal.com]

SFWA should consider not using the term 'graphic novel.' Unless they're going to start referring to novels and short stories as 'unmetred poems' and sculptures as 'three-dimensional paintings.'

My ideal world would have a U. S. or North American equivalent of the U. K.'s Comics Creators Guild - which covers cartoonists, writers and artists (and possibly others as well).

A relevent question is: are writers of films and TV programmes and lyricists represented by the SFWA?

All this while not realising what some wise soul has pointed out above: the SFWA is about a genre; comics are a medium.

[womzilla.livejournal.com]

Turn it around: why would comics writers want to be part of SFWA? Certainly the Grievance Committee--the main professional benefit--is hopelessly compromised. However, SFWA membership might be a step in the process towards comics writers being treated like professionals, with, like, agents and other representatives.

Having access to the SFWA Legal Fund might be worthwhile, though in fact the CBLDF has done a good job over its lifetime in defending comics professionals. SFWA doesn't seem to offer health benefits, which amazes me; if they did, it would definitely be a plus.