Is this a Historical/AH subgenre?
Apr. 24th, 2005 11:59 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
james_davis_nicollIf so, what is it called?
Set in Nazi Germany. This could be the historical Nazi Germany or one where the Nazis, against all the laws of economics and logistics, managed not to be crushed beneath the wheels of "It's a bad idea to pick a fight with the majority of the productive capacity in the world."
The protagonist is not anti-Nazi, at least to start with. He (or she, but I can't think of any example of a female protagonist in books of this sort) may not be entirely happy with Things As They Are but their primary focus is on day to day living, keeping their head down to avoid the attention of the SS or its equivilent.
Their work (usually police work) forces them to confront the basic nature of the Third Reich. There is some action that must be taken, one that usually makes the true nature ofthe 3R obvious to the world at large (typically somewhat oblivious to the nastier aspects of Nazism). The protagonist is conflicted because of the risks involved but in the end, they decide to commit the action.
The protagonist succeeds in his task but dies as a result. If there is any first person post-script, it is by someone who knew the protagonist, sometimes a German child who was pro-Nazi at the time, who was redeemed by the protagonists sacrifice.
Obviously any historical book set in Nazi Germany where the protagonist decides the Nazi regime is intolerable is unlikely to end well for the protagonist. the survival rate for members of the White Rose was pretty bad, for example. Is this actually a pattern in alternate history books of this sort or is it just that at this moment my memory is being selective? The fact that I cannot for the life of me remember how SS:GB ends inclines me to suspect the second.
The moral I think is present here isn't "Oppose the Man, get crushed" but "There are things worth dying for and here is one of them."
Set in Nazi Germany. This could be the historical Nazi Germany or one where the Nazis, against all the laws of economics and logistics, managed not to be crushed beneath the wheels of "It's a bad idea to pick a fight with the majority of the productive capacity in the world."
The protagonist is not anti-Nazi, at least to start with. He (or she, but I can't think of any example of a female protagonist in books of this sort) may not be entirely happy with Things As They Are but their primary focus is on day to day living, keeping their head down to avoid the attention of the SS or its equivilent.
Their work (usually police work) forces them to confront the basic nature of the Third Reich. There is some action that must be taken, one that usually makes the true nature ofthe 3R obvious to the world at large (typically somewhat oblivious to the nastier aspects of Nazism). The protagonist is conflicted because of the risks involved but in the end, they decide to commit the action.
The protagonist succeeds in his task but dies as a result. If there is any first person post-script, it is by someone who knew the protagonist, sometimes a German child who was pro-Nazi at the time, who was redeemed by the protagonists sacrifice.
Obviously any historical book set in Nazi Germany where the protagonist decides the Nazi regime is intolerable is unlikely to end well for the protagonist. the survival rate for members of the White Rose was pretty bad, for example. Is this actually a pattern in alternate history books of this sort or is it just that at this moment my memory is being selective? The fact that I cannot for the life of me remember how SS:GB ends inclines me to suspect the second.
The moral I think is present here isn't "Oppose the Man, get crushed" but "There are things worth dying for and here is one of them."
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no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 04:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 06:08 pm (UTC)It also sorta-kinda fits the first chunk of "Moon of Ice" by Brad Linaweaver, before he succumbed to the libertarian brain-eater, with the added cachet of using one of Goebbels' daughters as the hero-with-an-ine. (It's a while since I read it but I don't think she dies.)
Haven't read Turtledove's latest non-extruded Reich product ("In the presence of mine enemies") but it rings vague bells from the blurb. Added twist: protagonist is Jewish and closeted (hey, if it worked in mediaeval Spain ...).
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 06:15 pm (UTC)named Turtledove, tries to model a hypothetical with a historical event that really isn't appropriate. In this case, he takes the collapse of the Soviet empire, scrapes off the serial numbers and uses it to model how the Nazis might have ended, even thoguh the historical Soviets were surrounded by alternative social/economic systems while Turtledove's Nazis are supreme in their world.
Personally, given the Nazi economic system, I wouldn't give them good odds of getting out of the 1950s without a terminal convulsion.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 06:29 pm (UTC)Is there no cure for this scourge on SF? Some physick that will consume the sugary outer layers of the libertarian retrovirus and thus protect us from the sight of watching an author compelled by doctrine to deny the validity of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? A Purple Ray that will restore fevered minds to their previous serenity?
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 06:46 pm (UTC)This happens more often with the Southern Rebellion What The South Started To Preserve Slavery of course.
To answer the original query: Weihnachtsabend by Keith Roberts fits the pattern, as does SS-GB if i remember correctly.
Martin Wisse
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 06:55 pm (UTC)The idea is, I think, that the fervor of the early days was unsustainable. Just as the Eyebrow wasn't as nasty as Uncle Joe, so whoever eventually ran Nazi Germany wouldn't be as nasty as Adolf.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 08:05 pm (UTC)But if you ever find one, can you please tell me so I can cure large segments of the geek community?
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 09:25 pm (UTC)If you couldn't purple-ray them, you could hypnotize the NY Yankees into thinking that all libertarians' kneecaps are really hanging curve balls.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 03:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 12:12 pm (UTC)Then you get to have your "Back to Purity" sects in reaction, lather, rinse, repeat.
The Mormons make an excellent example of the pattern and now I am wondering if there are any Mormon stories that fit your models.
MAO
no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 05:40 pm (UTC)Nothing historical that I can recall.
The middle book in Dean Ing's WWIV + Recovery series? Except the protagonist in that lives and it's only the hot megababe who dies. Being the romantic interest in a series like that, esp with a Polly Pureheart type waiting offstage, is high-risk occupation.
What's the record in that series for women who enjoy sex? One blowed up, one died during a badly planned act of sex and one was horribly maimed. WHy isn't Ing writing for DC?
Dean Ing, the works of
Date: 2005-04-25 09:19 pm (UTC)Which books are those? SYSTEMIC SHOCK, SINGLE COMBAT, WILD COUNTRY, or does he have another series that I don't know about? (Note: I haven't actually *read* anything of his since SOFT TARGETS; I'm just trying to keep a list of serieses relatively complete.)
What's the record in that series for women who enjoy sex? One blowed up, one died during a badly planned act of sex and one was horribly maimed.
"Died during a badly planned act of sex..." This wasn't the legendary The Lady Who Loved Dolphins Too Much, was it?
Re: Dean Ing, the works of
Date: 2005-04-25 09:28 pm (UTC)I am not making this up
giant russian boars too much.
And yes, it was the series that began with SYSTEMIC SHOCK.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-26 04:48 am (UTC)There's also THE CHILDREN'S WAR, which is not a bag of pus, but it does suffer the Turtledovian habit of Being Way Underedited and overlong.