I kinda like this alternate history

[james_davis_nicoll]

Something I posted elsewhere:

POD: 1970s: A healthy Leigh Brackett pitches an interesting twist to George Lucas.


1980: Audiences are somewhat taken aback when, during the confrontation scene between Vader and Luke, Vader takes Luke's head off like an offending dandelion flower. Now the fate of the Rebel Alliance, rescuing Han and all that jazz rests on the shoulders of the last Jedi, Leia.

Comments

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

I would watch that lots.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

And the lesson here is when Yoda say you need more training, you really need more training.

[jeffr23.livejournal.com]

Leia, though, is probably going to end up with even less training. Even if you keep Yoda hale and hearty in the new version, I don't think "leave Han frozen for a couple years, and meanwhile stop doing anything about actually fighting the Empire" really flies...

Yoda, hale and hearty

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Isn't it odd that while most of the Jedi we see killed leave bodies, both Obi Wan and Yoda mysteriously vanish? #obiwanandyodafakedtheirdeaths

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

What do you mean "most of the Jedi we see killed"?

Obi-wan and Yoda are *the only* Jedi we see die, at that point. In fact, at that point, 100% of all dead Jedi mysteriously vanish.

The Emperor, it's hard to tell if he vanished or was just disintegrated so he doesn't count, but it's not until the very end of Return that *any* dead Jedi leaves a body.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I mean in all six films. Obi Wan and Yoda give the impression Jedi just fade away when they die but Vader looks a bit puzzled when he's poking Obi Wan's robes. Neither of the Sith vanish like that (but maybe it's a Jedi thing). Once we get into the prequels, none of the Jedi we see killed pull the vanishing thing.

Re:

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I figured the prequels were disqualified since we were discussing Alternate 1980, but okay.

Thing is, once we add in the prequels we also need to add in the bit about how Qui-Gon had figured out how to become "one with the Force" when he died, and was in the process of teaching Obi-Wan and Yoda the trick. But he was the first one to figure it out, and everyone else died before they could learn it.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

oh, right. Fair enough.

[botrytis.livejournal.com]

What conditions would have to convene to allow Hollywood of that era to both:

* Kill of one of the primary male protagonists.
* Promote the princess-to-be-rescued to the main protagonist for the final story (having to redeem Vader, ensure the Emperor's defeat, etc)

? I'm trying to imagine the differences in US culture and media...

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, remember that only a few years later (1986) in another movie, most of the primary male protagonists were taken out of the fight one way or another and the final confrontation was a hand-to-hand fight between Ellen Ripley and the Queen after she had already faced down the xenomorphs with a flame-thrower equipped BFG.

It's not *impossible*...I think the biggest issue would be you'd have to set up Leia as Luke's sister earlier so there isn't an accusation of it being an ass-pull.

[graydon saunders (from livejournal.com)]

Ripley was originally a male role, though, and Luke and Leia being siblings, at least by some reports, _was_ an ass-pull in response to Mark Hamill's facial injuries in a car accident.

I can't see this happening _now_, never mind then. There's a very narrow range of acceptable female agency in a big budget film. Look at how much response the Black Widow role got in the Avengers, and that's still way off overt protagonist status.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

Ripley's gender may've been unspecified in the script for Alien, but that doesn't apply to Aliens.

And Liea being Luke's sister was an ass-pull after Lucas decided he didn't want to do nine movies and needed a way to quickly explain the, "No, there is another" line. From what is known of the third trilogy as planned in the late '70s, the plot would've focused on finding the alternate after Luke failed against Vader.

[graydon saunders (from livejournal.com)]

Aliens is a very different movie, though, and goes to a great deal of trouble to set things up so Ripley is being badass for reasons of motherhood, a desperate defense of her child, rather than general pragmatic competence.

[botrytis.livejournal.com]

"From what is known of the third trilogy as planned in the late '70s, the plot would've focused on finding the alternate after Luke failed against Vader."

Where would one begin if I wanted to read more about what was planned?

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

There's Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays by Laurent Bouzereau, but being officially licensed by LucasFilm it has some heavy limitations on what it can say. Then there's The Secret History of Star Wars by Michael Kaminsky, which extensively documents both the development of the series and Lucas's BS about having it all planned from the get-go.

[joenotcharles.livejournal.com]

It couldn't happen now because Hollywood has become MORE slave to traditions as time goes on, especially with regards to blockbusters. Star Wars came at the beginning of the blockbuster phenomenon when the rules weren't as clear, and it was in the 70's when there was a lot of experimentation without the rigid separation into big-budget vs indie films. Empire came later, but Lucas still had the influence to make the films he wanted without studios vetoing ideas because they don't fit established ideas of what would sell. So if somebody had talked him into making Leia the protagonist, he could have done it.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I think they're actually more reluctant now to put a female lead in a big summer action movie than they were in the 1980s. (James Cameron had a particular fondness for it in those days, but somehow those giant smash hits were regarded as freak occurrences.)

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

...Admittedly, people probably figured that Schwarzenegger was the draw in the Terminator films.

[burger-eater.livejournal.com]

Also worth noting: Aliens is essentially a horror movie, which has a long tradition of female leads.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

I'd argue that. "Alien" is a horror movie. "Aliens" was an action-adventure with some horror overtones. "Aliens 3" was just horrible. "Alien: Resurrection" was horribly appalling. And the less said about "Prometheus" the better.

[burger-eater.livejournal.com]

Crap. I meant to type "Alien" not "Aliens". My error.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

When did Byrne kill off Guardian? '83? '84?

[davidgoldfarb.livejournal.com]

'84.

[chris-gerrib.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see some Hollywood executive heads blowing up with that story line. (Not that it wouldn't have been ***awesome*** to have actually happened.)

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

There were no Hollywood executives involved with Empire -- it was produced as an independent film with all the production staff working directly for Lucas and Fox only serving as a distributor. The main reason Lucas curtailed his plans for a nine movie series was that Empire went over-budget to the point that Lucas ended up risking his entire fortune.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I also liked bryant's alternate Episode Three.

[scott-sanford.livejournal.com]

"Darth Vader killed your father, Luke."

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

It does take "a certain point of view" to a new level.

[richardthe23rd.livejournal.com]

Never underestimate the latent sexism prevalent as late as those days. Even though it seemed to me that the filmmakers were making it blindingly obvious in the latter scenes of EMPIRE that the "another" Yoda mentions is Leia, I had an argument with a fellow fan who vehemently, almost violently, denied that it could be so, and for no other reason I could see besides she was, you know, a girl. And this was my girlfriend talking! Even in the face seemingly incontrovertible evidence, even many women couldn't seem to conceive of a woman as a Jedi Knight.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

As gareth_wilson mentioned below, in some early drafts of Star Wars the main character (the Luke character) was female. There are poster samples and the like that reflect this.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

This audience would probably still be watching that movie once a week or more, because God DAMN.

[gareth-wilson.livejournal.com]

Apparently the "Luke" character was female in one of the early drafts of Star Wars (and there was no Leia). I've always wondered how that version would have done.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

I've read Michael Kaminski's The Secret History of Star Wars and Laurent Bouzereau's Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays and I don't recall any draft where there was a female character in anything resembling Luke's role.

[seawasp]

Empire was dark enough as it was; doing that would have lost a large chunk of the audience (me included). Nothing to do with Leia being a woman; you simply don't make a hero who's the clear focal point of a series, and then kill him OR her in the middle of their journey once you've gotten past a certain point. Kill off Luke in Star Wars, okay, you could probably do that, but you really should do it at most maybe 3/4 of the way through so that we can re-focus and find the REAL hero of the plot, but not after you've finished the first movie, and then gone through 95% of the second.

[zornhau.livejournal.com]

Alas. Seawasp is right. It would be good, however, to have had Bracket write the Return of the Jedi script.

[wakboth.livejournal.com]

Yup. That would have been a very stupid twist, and would have resulted in a much worse ESB and Star Wars in general.

[martinl-00.livejournal.com]

We all know how thoroughly killing off the protagonist late in the book deep-sixed _Tnzr bs Guebarf_, which probably would have become a fan favourite otherwise given the book's overall qualities.

[seawasp]

I *knew* someone would bring that (or a similar case) up; I'm actually somewhat surprised it took three replies.

But (A) Martin did this, what, a quarter-century later, so his stuff could be viewed as deconstruction, and (B) there's a damn good reason I, and quite a few other people of my acquaintance, have not and won't be reading that.

[martinl-00.livejournal.com]

Breaking rules can be wildly successful - if you do it well.

[agharta75.livejournal.com]

But Ned wasn't the protagonist.

(Now, if Tyrion is killed off before the end of book 7 ...)

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

How about "Luke dies on the frozen wastes of Hoth"?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back

[dexfarkin.livejournal.com]

There's a substantial chunk of fandom which really goes for the Leia, Jedi Knight revision - lots of fanfiction. Personally, I prefer Leia as she is. Luke is pretty much an ignorant farm boy and crack pilot who ends up picking up knowledge and wisdom as an acolyte of the force. He's a good commander, but it is clear through the fandom that the title 'General' is pretty much honourary beyond his talents with light ship squadrons like X-Wings.

Solo turns out to be a gifted strategist - not on the level of Ackbar, but still very good - and has the unique gift of unpredictability as a general.

But Leia is so much beyond the both of them in terms of her skills and talents. She's a gifted diplomat, an effective administrator, a natural leader in the political and inspirational sense. She's shown to be equally adept running small outposts as she is welding together fractious groups with individual mandates into a single purpose. As the canon goes, at one point she's the head of state of the New Republic. Turning her into a Jedi in a way diminishes that as her training would require her to effectively leave the Rebellion during their most fragile time.

It would be fun, but Leia's uniqueness is in part based on the fact that she has the greatest responsibility of the three titular heroes.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

I don't see where anyone would get the impression that either Luke or Han are capable of commanding anything. We never see Luke in charge of anything but a couple wingmen, and Han's commando unit in Jedi is just there as background.

[dexfarkin.livejournal.com]

Assuming you go solely by the movies as the only source materials, Luke is the head of Rogue group on Hoth and coordinates the entire air defense of at least two dozen Snowspeeders. He's also got command authority for part of the evacuation of Hoth as shown as he's getting his flight gear prepared.

As for Solo, it's pretty heavily implied that he was originally offered full command of the fighter wings in the Second Death Star assault, and command of the strike team on the Endor moon is argubly the most essential part of the operation.

The films make it clear that by the third movie, they're all considered in the upper eschelons of the Rebellion command structure.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

Yes, we're told that they're in command of various things, but we never see them actually commanding. The most Luke does is order his wingman to cover him. He doesn't make any major tactical or strategic decisions, doesn't come up with a plan of battle or anything. Likewise with Han on Endor. When you compare them to the way Kirk and Picard are portrayed in the Star Trek movies, or Gandalf and Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, it's really hard to take seriously any claims that they're leaders, let alone great ones. They're just individualist heroes who occasionally get red shirts to accompany them on missions.

[dexfarkin.livejournal.com]

This is getting into nitpick territory but sure.

The most Luke does is order his wingman to cover him. He doesn't make any major tactical or strategic decisions, doesn't come up with a plan of battle or anything.

Not true. The attack on Hoth, Luke brings up Rogue group against the AT-ATs.

--The fleet of snowspeeders races above the ice field at full throttle.
They accelerate away from the base and head toward the distant walkers.

INT. LUKE'S SNOWSPEEDER, ROGUE LEADER - COCKPIT

LUKE
(into comlink)
All right, boys, keep tight now.

DACK
Luke, I have no approach vector.
I'm not set.

LUKE
Steady, Dack. Attack pattern
delta. Go now!--

Luke sets his squadrons attack pattern in relation to the threat on their station. They make the attack, discovering that it doesn't work. Luke adapts.

--LUKE
That armor's too strong for
blasters.

On the horizon, another walker moves up past Luke's cockpit window,
twisting out of sight as Luke banks and starts another run.

LUKE
(into comlink)
Rogue Group, use your harpoons
and tow cables. Go for the legs.
It might be our only chance of
stopping them.--

Luke's new attack pattern brings down several major ground assault units which were thought to be invulnerable to his squads' weapons. I'm not saying it's the Battle of Gaugamela, but there's a pretty clear example right there of command.

Now, that being said, comparing leadership in Star Wars to Star Trek or LotR is pretty dubious. The movies are structured very differently, as are the characters and the necessities of the plot. If you base it strictly on the movies alone, sure, you have to infer that they have the command roles due to some level of competance, because there's never really a place in the plot to showcase it (although, again, Han uses a small unit pretty effectively on-screen to take a fortified enemy position and Luke brings down several enemy units despite being vastly outgunned by them which I'd argue suggest sound tactical judgement).

[burger-eater.livejournal.com]

You don't actually have to kill Luke to make Leia a more important part of the movie. Luke is a moisture farmer; Leia is a senator and the daughter of a diplomat. There's a more obvious choice for which one Vader would want to help him rule the empire.

I played around with this idea in my Star Wars reboot: Vader ought to threaten Luke to the point that Leia becomes furious and turns to the dark side.

[d-c-m.livejournal.com]

I would watch the heck out of that. :)