With all due respect to the people involved

[james_davis_nicoll]

Can we defer the Jim Baen (and Baen Books) bashing until his status is resolved? And I don't mean in terms of finding out which hospital he is in.

Comments

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

people who talk trash about fandom prove themselves even more poorly socialized than their stereotyping would have fandom be. film at 11.

[(Anonymous)]

This is false. Christ, I've had fen _authors_ stalk me. No amount of whining about the mean mundane will convince me that having some git post one's name, address, and phone number online asking for suggestions to deal with the problem of my existence is civilized (or even socialized) behavior; and the horrified outcry from that author's fan audience -- some of whom post here -- was deafening in its silence.

Then there was the fen editor who trashed my co-blogger, and tried getting a dogpile effect of harrassment. (Fortunately, they live overseas.) Then there was the fanboy who claimed I rape little boys -- fortunately, I have lawyer friends. Then there was the fanboy who wanted my friend killed by a Serb bullet. Et cetera ad nauseam. And you know, deafening silence from the fannish gallery.

It's very hard to not come to the conclusion that y'all, as a subculture, are fucked in the head.

But I have no problem with holding off the Baen bashing in particular, per James's request.

Carlos -- has an ax.

Huh?

[seawasp]

Yeah, certainly. SF fan behavior can be wierd. Is it more extreme than ANY fans? No. Offhand I don't know any SF/F versions of that famous man Hinckley, who decided to shoot a president so a certain actress would notice him. Not an SF actress, either. Sports fans quite often beat each other up -- physically -- over sport issues. Cardplaying fanatics have shot each other over misplayed hands.

As a group, I really seriously doubt you can show ANY evidence that SF/F fans are any more messed up (in a DANGEROUS sense) than any other part of the population that has a strong interest in something. There's *ALWAYS* nuts, flakes, screwballs, and weirdos involved in just about ANY activity that draws human attention. Calling a particular group "fucked in the head" requires some evidence that there's something MORE screwed up about them than other groups.

Similar allegations have been made about, e.g., the roleplaying gamer community. Studies actually DONE on them have shown that they are, in fact, not noticeably different on most measurements, and certainly not more dangerous. I suspect that if you were to do studies of the SF/F fan communities, you'd find no particular increase in notably dangerous weirdness over the general population.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure I've only seen you post here on James' LJ, and you're rude and insulting. If that holds up, I can see why people don't like you.

[(Anonymous)]

He's "coyu" on Usenet. That may explain everything.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I note that he is willing to sign his name to his posts, whereas our friend from Santa Rosa is not.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

Aha. Indeed.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

so bad shit happened to you. that sucks, and i am truly sorry it did. i have empathy for that sort of thing because bad shit happened to me, albeit committed by non-fen. but apparently that's irrelevant in your world view -- if bad shit happens to you, that entitles you to sweeping generalizations, but if bad shit happens to me, i am whining? what exquisite logic, and how fair-minded of you.

secondly, i am not part of fandom. i know james from elsewhere. i have friends who are fen, though, and i've certainly seen some fucked-up shit within fandom. but as i said, i've seen that and much worse outside of it. and from the outside looking in, i don't even buy the "poorly socialized" trope at all. if i were studying sociology, i'd be itching to do a paper on that; i think it's one of those pernicious stereotypes that could do with a lot more examination.

thirdly, bad shit happening to you excuses your rudeness here exactly how? did jim baen stalk you, accuse you of raping little boys, post your contact info in order to harass you? no? then why in the world are you pissing on him when he's down? did your parents buy that sort of excuse back in the days when you got your basic socialization training? i certainly don't. do you not realize how totally out of place that is, in fandom and outside? that james even needs to request you shut your trap at a time like this marks you as badly socialized to me; whether you're a fan or a "mundane" makes absolutely no difference. add to that your lack of empathy and self-centredness from above, and you've got three strikes against you. how many strikes does it take for you to consider somebody badly socialized?

suggestion: use that ax to work on the log in your own eye.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

You know, I covet your icon. The origami crane is sort of my signature. I'm planning to scan my sterling origami crane, though, so don't worry, I won't take your icon.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

amen.

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

Heartily agreed.

-- Steve found the discussion distasteful, especially when couched in terms of good taste.

[robertprior.livejournal.com]

??? What's been happening?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Jim Baen is in hospital following a stroke, as mentioned in an early entry on this LJ. Some of the discussion veered into the merits or lack thereof of Baen Books, which normally I am up for. At this particular point in time, I would prefer to avoid heated discussions on this subject until Baen gets out of hospital (Individual books, on the other hand, are still fair game).

It's like the Chalker thread on rasfw. I was going to review one of his collections when he died but I noticed that a fair chunk of the book touched on a reliable hot-button for rasfw [1] and held off, rather than let his widow get a flamewar as a memorial.

1: I don't recall whether the hot button was EDITORS: THREAT OR MENACE or THE EVIL THAT CRITICS DO LIVES AFTER THEM. Either one is a reliable way to start an angry argument.

I will note...

[seawasp]

.... That I would consider, FOR MYSELF, a 20,000 post flamewar to be an appropriate memorial. Especially if it produced any memorable and much-quoted sound bites.

:)

20,000 in Gehenna

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

EDITING: THREAT OR MENACE only ran 1274 articles, I am afraid.

Re: 20,000 in Gehenna

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Huh. Poking around on one critic related thread, I find that I once said:

" Bah. Double Bah. Every time I think Robinson has gotten as
shallow as he can get, he sucks another half inch out of the pool. "

which I think is a paraphrase of a snark a friend said about someone other than Robinson.

Re: 20,000 in Gehenna

[seawasp]

I can always hope for more.

[pfdietz.livejournal.com]

until his status is resolved?

BTW, if he is still in a coma after a month, that will pretty much be that; almost no adults emerge from coma after that long a period. For that matter, I understand only 15% of patients who experience more than a few hours of coma will make a good recovery.

The type of stroke he has had, by the sound of it, can take out the thalamic part of the ascending reticular activating system (the brain's 'on' switch), which would result in irreversible coma.