Welcome to the Harlan Ellison Memorial Personal Boundaries Club

[james_davis_nicoll]

Sad male fan capitalizes on way to be even more creepy to female fans.

As seen on a wide variety of LJ accounts. I have to say there's a clear consensus on the idea of treating women's bodies as public commons and it's not heading in the direction of commutarian touching. Who could have predicted that outcome?

Comments

[childe.livejournal.com]

While I understand your responses individually, I'm having a hard time reconstructing them into a larger understanding.

I think that my issue comes down to the fact that while those who -actually participated- and were -actually there-, both men and women, had no problem with what they were doing, you do.

I would like to know where you (or daedala) get the authority to tell those people, "No! That's a bad!"

Further reasons for my above question:
- No one asked anyone without a pin.
- I have never been at a con where women and men both aren't dressed to invite appreciation of whatever jiggly bits, whether appropriate for minors or not
- I fully acknowledge that uninvited groping is wrong (duh) and uninvited touching of any sort is wrong (my own personal space issues included).

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

We get the right to say "that's problematic, offensive, and wrong" by being human, especially since the original subject was BOOBS and as women we're the primary source of those. We can't impose our authority on those people from here! We can collect and work for a majority consensus that a behaviour is unacceptable, but that's not just us, that's a lot of people. In fact, as offensive as I find the concept to be in PUBLIC, I can see (and I've said so elsewhere, just not here) how it could potentially be very interesting and even lovely in a private setting or a setting where presence implied participation in the event.

- No one asked anyone without a pin.
--Actually, they did. They expanded it immediately beyond their circle to someone they felt was dressed in an 'advertising' manner, and then asked women who were not wearing pins if they wanted to participate.

- I have never been at a con where women and men both aren't dressed to invite appreciation of whatever jiggly bits, whether appropriate for minors or not
--Appreciation is NOT intimate contact, first. One time, a man in a bar came up to me and said, "I think you're the perfect woman. Your smile, your laugh, the way you dress, how confident you are -- just seeing you made me feel joyful tonight, and I wanted you to know that. And, by the way, my wife over there agrees with me. I hope I didn't offend, and I'll let you be now." Now, I think he was off his nut, but I was not in the least bit offended by that. I thought it was wonderful. He even tipped his hat to me, which was insanely charming.
--And second, those people may actually not be dressed for the purposes of the viewers' appreciation. A 300-pound woman (or man) in a Sailor Moon outfit is no moron; she knows what the general public is going to think of her. She does it for fun, to be transgressive, for her own agenda. The same thing can apply to a nubile beauty of any gender. They may not be dressing to be viewed, or the view solicited may not be sexual. It may be a display of cosplay prowess.

- I fully acknowledge that uninvited groping is wrong (duh) and uninvited touching of any sort is wrong (my own personal space issues included).
--Sadly, you are not everyone. At all. Uninvited groping is wrong. Pressuring women, obliquely or otherwise, to invite requests for intimate touch or to invite the touches, is also wrong. It is not activism, it is harmful.

[childe.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that what was going on was pressuring. I think that you have some very valid points, and I appreciate having an actual discussion with you, instead of a flame war. Thank you.

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

I understand how some people would not find it pressuring and others would, and so I get why you'd disagree on the subject. It was nice talking to you.

[daedala.livejournal.com]

Turning a public space into a hostile environment for women is bad. Why is this so hard?

Several people have posted that they were there, and they did have problems. Further, the original post was about bringing this to congoers everywhere.

[atypia.livejournal.com]

People were asked when they weren't wearing a pin. The first time there were no pins, and they went up the strangers asking if they could grope them.