Today's questions

[james_davis_nicoll]

What fraction of MilSF authors writing today have actually seen combat? And is there a correlation between the distance they spent from whatever fronts exist and the enthusiasm they have for a military solution to various problems?

Comments

[autopope.livejournal.com]

(Waves hand)

How do you define a MilSF author? Am I? (Singularity Sky, for ex.) Is Lois McMaster Bujold? I think we can agree on David Weber and John Ringo, but where do we draw the boundary?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I'm tempted to say that if you can spell "logistics", you probably can't be a MilSF author for fear of alienating the readers with your erudition but that only invites a misspelling on my part.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_science_fiction) seems like a good enough definition to start with.

We might also want to distinguish between veterans of one-sided wars and vets of the other kind of war. Participating in the heated struggle between the US and a nation roughly the population of Waterloo, Ontario might tend to give one a view of war slightly different from someone who spent the Battle of Bulge hauling a machine-gun around (Not that too many of those guys are still around).

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I'd say that you've written stuff that looks a bit like MilSF but which would not satify the average MilSF reader. The major military that we see is run by an imbecile but the Plucky Rebels are barely competent to open a tin of beans.

[roseembolism.livejournal.com]

I considered Singularity Sky to be an anti-milsf novel, primarily because it takes the tropes of the genre(Military virtues, brilliant tactics, etc.) and renders them irrelevant.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

IIRC, there was a discussion on rasfw which concluded that milsf is sf about people who are in a chain of command. By that definition, Bujold wrote almost no milsf.

Afaik, when people talk about milsf, they generally mean military science fiction, not fantasy. I don't have a feeling for why they aren't combined or why military fantasy isn't a common topic of discussion.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Who is there writing MilF? Wait, that's probably not a wise choice of acronym. MilFantasy.

There's Cook. There's Erikson, I think. Would Moon's Paks novels qualify?

[nexstarman.livejournal.com]

Well... has Tom Clancy? I have my doubts.

[phanatic.livejournal.com]

No, he wasn't.

James, is there a variant of the brain-eater that makes the afflicted author believe he doesn't need an editor anymore?

[martin-wisse.livejournal.com]

Nope. See the War Nerd for more.

[drelmo.livejournal.com]

With regards to the second, that combination is hardly unique to writers, and is virtually a definition of the US neocon movement.

They and I learned very different lessons from comic book superheroes.

[(Anonymous)]

To anwer your question, there's Drake (Vietnam), Pournelle (Korea), Ringo
(Gulf War). David Weber is the only one that comes to mind who didn't serve.

And given how barking mad Ringo is, I don't think there's a useful correlation.

[jwgh]

"The Forever War" seems to be generally accepted to be a work of MilSF. I know that Joe Haldeman is still writing but I haven't read any of his recent stuff (although a recent book is in my 'to be read' pile); do you know if any of it would qualify?

(By the way, while googling for information regarding your question I came across several people typoing 'milf' for 'milsf'. It appears that this can result in confusion.)

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Well, Forever Peace might but Forever Free (the actual sequel to The Forever War) would not, imo.

I think Old Twentieth had some war scenes but I have to confess that I don't remember it that well.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a vet who served _far_ from the whistle of shot and shell (spent my war at the country club of the Signal Corps), you can learn a lot from the frazzled PTSD'd survivors around you.

[ericjarvis.livejournal.com]

Speaking as somebody with no military experience whatsoever, you can also learn a hell of a lot from the ex servicemen wandering around many major cities sleeping rough and begging for money to feed their alcoholism. Mostly what I've learned is that I know sod all about being involved in any form of military combat and before making stuff up I should ask somebody who knows what they are on about. I hope to apply that lesson consistently.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Did William Keith, Jr. serve? The latest book by him that I read is an expression of extreme USMCphilia.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Tom Kratman, who's was a mustang. Mike Williamson, who's still in the reserves. Elizabeth Moon was in the Corps.

I want to say Harlan Ellison wrote some MilSF but can't call any titles to mind.

Chris Bunch's article in wiki says that he's a Vietnam vet.

This is pointing out to me that my library is too small. Again.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that Williamson never saw combat.

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

I think one could usefully break down MilSF into two categories: "war is the force that gives us meaning" SF, and everything else.

(Some people have been transformed in a positive way by war. Some people only think they were. I suspect this is why there's such a tight correlation among the latter and the "unskilled and unaware of it" crew.)

[razorsmile.livejournal.com]

Does Glen Cook count? Technically, he writes MilF (The Black Compnay books) but still, he was in the Navy.

Data point of one, I know, but I'd say "yes, inversely proportional" to the second question.

[deor.livejournal.com]

Elizabeth Moon was in the Marines, but not, I believe, on active duty in a war zone.

As for the Paks series, I'd say that the first book definitely counts as milFantasy and parts of the next two books. I particularly remember the part in book 2 in the military order academy where the importance of logistics is mentioned. "One Tir-damned mule in four just to carry the supply for the mules carrying the supply." (quote approximate) :-)

[(Anonymous)]

I'd say distance from the front can lead to an excessive belief in the value of military solutions, but I'm unsure it works the other way. A great many Germans came back from the trenches (one of the frontiest of fronts) with, if anything, an increased belief in the value of kicking people in the head as the solution to life's problems. (If MilSF had been around as a genre in 1918, would Ernst Junger have written it? Come to think of it, he lived until the 1990s...)

Bruce

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

He did, under a generous interpretation of the term. On the Marble Cliffs is basically the magic realism Hitler novel, and if Lucius Shepard hasn't read it, I'll eat a small hat. The Glass Bees has an ex-middle-European officer turned mercenary become the Italian Susan Calvin's chief of security.

Creeeepy stuff, as is most of Junger's work.

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

If you count one book, Elizabeth Ann Scarborough's The Healer's War. It's set in Vietnam, where she was an Army nurse.

[sunburn.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering how far you can vary this question in fairness, or is it purely another interation of the chickenhawk libel.

Would the 2-3 astronauts who wrote space fiction please remain seated, while everyone else leave the room? Thank you.