Ecclesiastes 1:9

[james_davis_nicoll]

Tough problems demand tough-minded solutions! LIFE BOAT RULES! LIFE BOAT RULES!

Inexplicably not titled "I have a totally original idea nobody has ever had before and that I will not research to see if there are known pit-falls! Let's pay undesirables to get vasectomies!"

My favourite line?

While I have not crunched the numbers to support this hypothesis,

Comments

[eagle]

Sigh. Freakonomics. A mildly interesting book that became far too popular for its own good and thereby gave the authors delusions of grandeur. As soon as they started straying away from the research the actual economist of the writing pair had done himself, they very quickly ended up in the weeds.

[sivi-volk.livejournal.com]

I have this utter lack of shock that this is being posted on Freakonomics.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

I admit I have no clear command of the pitfalls.

I note the proposer thinks vasectomies are reversible; wikipedia says that's not reliably true, and is expensive ($10K) to even try. RISUG would seem a better fit, except it's still in trials, apparently.

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

http://www.realadultsex.com/content/regarding-vasectomy-reversals

"Note #3: Birth Control: Vasectomies are surprisingly reversible. According to the urologist who reversed mine, the biggest obstacle isn’t reconnecting the plumbing. It’s the typical age of the reverse-ee and of the reverse-ee’s partner. The standard scenario: Man gets vasectomy in his mid-30’s. Man remarries in his early-to-mid-50’s. Man’s partner is in her early-to-mid-40’s. They wish to start a second family. Fertility at these ages is already moderately problematic anyway, and this, more than the technical surgery itself, accounts for most reports of low success rates for reversals.

"Bottom line: If this is why you’re balking at a vasectomy, discuss it with a urologist."

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Is it my imagination, or does the idea suddenly become vastly less creepy if you remove the monetary incentive? If, you know, reproductive health and reproductive choices were free and available. Oops, socialized medicine. Can't have that. Shock, horror, etc.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I find pretty much every "for the good of society those people should be encouraged to have fewer children" suggestion creepy, except when it involves neutering Ted Turner and his family.

[blpurdom.livejournal.com]

I was going to say, "Wouldn't just giving out free contraception be the solution to unwanted pregnancy in general? Not to mention not hassling anyone about morning-after pills." But, in addition to the socialized medicine problem, that would imply being pro-sex, and there are a number of politicians who are always going to be allergic to that.

I also note that there is no suggestion that 18 year old women who wish to have their tubes tied might also be offered the $1500. Perhaps that is because there is still a perception that all women, of all ages, wish to have children. I know a few very frustrated women who do not plan to have children, ever, and who have been completely unable to convince an OBGYN to perform this procedure on them because the doctors (both men and women) all insist that the patients will change their minds at some point in the future (and, very likely, the doctors don't wish to be sued when that happens for not trying hard enough to dissuade the patients). No one seems willing to believe a woman who states that she isn't interested in giving birth.

[emt-hawk.livejournal.com]

All those in favor of cutting his nuts off?

--H

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

On a not really related note, were you aware there's an example of the Someone Must Go Out The Airlock story from 1891? A Plunge into Space by Robert Cromie.

This is in Chapter 5

“One word more.” He pointed to a door in the side of the globe opposite to that by which they had entered.” That is what we have called the ejector. By a simple device of double doors any superfluous or deleterious article or—or—body can be expelled with only a trifling loss of air. Should we run short of oxygen it will be my duty to name the man who must first pass through that door.”
The men below shuddered.
“If that be not enough I shall name another, and so on, till only myself and the engineer are left. Then I shall go in the hope that he may reach the end in safety, to the growth of knowledge and the advancement of science. If any man hesitates—if any man is afraid—we can still easily return to the Earth and set him free. He may never have another opportunity to go. I now require every man to accept or decline my terms.”

By the end of the novel someone is ejected...

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Ah, you backed Singularity&Co. too?

[avram]

“The ejector”? The ship has a special airlock just for throwing people out of?!

[(Anonymous)]

ISTR they tried that in India. Wasn't a great success there.

Too bad we don't have some sort of electronic information system that accessible from almost anywhere, so people with bright ideas could easily do research.

[nelc.livejournal.com]

You and your crazy sci-fi ideas!

[bwross.livejournal.com]

We tried that with the Internet. Wasn't a great success either. Greatest tool even for confirmation biasing, though... people can almost always find enough information to support the insanest idea, that they don't feel bad about how much other information they have to ignore (ie the India case isn't applicable because the new idea is better and different... and the Internet can provide ample reasons for why that is, too).

[scott-sanford.livejournal.com]

I recall that it was briefly popular in certain circles in India, and the number of repeat customers became embarrassing.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

The poster also refers to the Freakonomics theory that the decline in criminality is caused by the legalization of abortion. While this is an appealing theory, in many ways, the numbers are at best ambiguous. If I recall correctly, another explanation that has better numbers to support it is the reduction in lead in the environment, which happens at approximately the same time as the legalization of abortion. Moreover, it more handily explains local variation. Communities saw crime reduction commensurate with the amount of lead abatement done in that community.

[bemused-leftist.livejournal.com]

Correlationally, aren't the communities which reduce lead also the ones that legalize abortion and do other liberal thingys,?

[vass]

I'll give him .0005 of a point for originality, for offering to sterilise men, not women. I hadn't heard that variation before. Then I'll subtract the .0005 of a point again, because it didn't add any merit to the proposal.

[nojay.livejournal.com]

Well if they proposed sterilising women then the worthy males (naming no names, you understand) would have less chance to procreate their superior genes into the FUTURE! That way lies vatgirls and madness.

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, as the Thirty Years' War suggested when two-thirds of the men in the Holy Roman Empire were killed, and Indira Gandhi established beyond doubt when her stormtroopers were dragging men off the street for compulsory sterilization, the proportion of fertile males is utterly irrelevant to the birthrate.

[bemused-leftist.livejournal.com]

Which applies to the neutering of tomcats, too.

[moonlithoughts.livejournal.com]

That could lead to an increase in the spread of STIs. I haven't crunched the numbers to support this hypothesis, but if men aren't worried about causing pregnancy they might forgo condoms altogether.

Why do people jump to this radical stuff rather than cheap, legal contraceptives and cheap, legal abortions? It's not a total solution but it's a lot better than, "Can't pay your rent? Get yourself sterilized!" and less likely to lead to a lawsuit when someone turns their life around and accuses the state of manipulation of the poor.

[nelc.livejournal.com]

Because that would mean some people getting something for nothing? Or possibly because the proposer is sure that the rest of the human race exist as obstacles to their desires, and so can't contemplate anyone doing anything that might lie to the proposer's advantage unless they're forced to it.

[bemused-leftist.livejournal.com]

"Can't pay your rent? Get yourself sterilized!"

Yes, that would be quite nasty.