I cannot emphasize strongly enough

[james_davis_nicoll]

that secondary world fantasies are set in entirely invented worlds to which Earth's actual history may have little to no relevance.

Comments

[jreynolds197]

You surprise me, sir.

[(Anonymous)]

And languages. Dear author, if your secondary world has poetry that rhymes, I will not read your books.

(Dear poets, if your English poetry does not rhyme I will not read it. (Unless it has heavy alliteration and a caesura in every line.))

[karinfromnosund]

You know, it is perfectly possible to translate poetry. There are people who do that. Poets, actually

[philrm]

I can't comment on the Polish originals, but Michael Sandel's translations of the poems produced by Trurl's Electronic Bard in the First Sally (A) of The Cyberiad are works of sheer genius.

[mindstalk]

Kandel, not Sandel, but yes.

[philrm]

Arrgh! I have no idea how I typed Kandel's name as 'Sandel', especially as I had just pulled the book off the shelf to check which section the Electronic Bard appears in. (At least there is a Michael Sandel, although he's a political philosopher rather than a translator.)

[alexseanchai]

I suspect what anon is objecting to—re secondary-world poetry; I am certain of what anon is objecting to about non-rhyming poetry composed in English and anon is 100% entitled to be 100% wrong—is the thing where like, someone looks for the first time at an inscription in ancient Egyptican hieroglyphics or whatever, and reads it out loud in English without spending more than ten seconds looking at it first, and it's rhyming couplets.

which is an entirely fair objection that is entirely likely to have no bearing whatsoever on whatever poetry is in the book. not least because, sure, the dwarves aren't speaking English when they're singing about smashing plates and things Bilbo Baggins hates, but Tolkien in translating to English decided to prioritize preserving the rhyme and rhythm.

[jazzfish]

I commend to you a) John M. Ford's Aspects, and b) Andrew Plotkin's essay on languages and linguistics in same, for reasons that would be a spoiler for the essay if I were to enumerate them.

[viktor_haag]

Not all poetry
Need rhyme or alliterate
Or rhythmic measure

[(Anonymous)]

*applause*

-Awesome Aud

[(Anonymous)]

Hark! Let us speak,
of the word-smiths of old,
whose keen tongues cut deeply
into the shields of hearing;
when the measure of the poet
was the cleverness of his kennings.

--
Nathan H.

[NB "Shields of hearing" is actually authentic, "skjöldum heyrnar" from a praise poem for King Magnus Haakonsson (of Norway), who was also called "Magnús lagabœtir" or "Magnus Law-mender" which is itself kind of poetic to my ear.]

[jreynolds197]

This Is Just To Say

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold

[(Anonymous)]

Should I attribute this to you, or is it from another poet?

-Awesome Aud

[jreynolds197]

This is Just to Add

I have not attributed
a poem that was by
William Carlos Williams
To him.

Forgive me,
the poem was delicious.

My bibliographic
sins are many, and
I am sorry.

--jreynolds197, 2022

[elusis]

This is Just to Point Out
I have awarded
an internet
that you
have won

and which
you almost certainly
do not
need.

Forgive me,
I literally
lol'ed at
your reply.

[goljerp]

I Was Also Reminded
of a short
biography
of SF writer
and poet
Jo Walton

which can be found
on her website
at http://www.jowaltonbooks.com/about-jo-walton/ .

Forgive me,
URLs
aren't
very poetic.

[magedragonfire]

You sound fun at poetry slams.

[dragoness_e]

I sense... sarcasm, but I'm not sure what or who it is aimed at.

[bolindbergh]

Authors who think "historical accuracy" is a good response to complaints about the frequency of rapes in their medievaloid invented worlds.

[jreynolds197]

"Sexual violence is realistic in this milieu! Also, dragons!"

Kameron Hurley mentioned that in the fictional universe of her novel The Light Brigade there wasn't sexual discrimination (against women, or LGBT+ people). A nice touch in an otherwise crapsack world.

[dragoness_e]

These two reasons ("historical accuracy" and "sexual violence is realistic in this milieu") are not the same. The first is a lazy copy-out, because it's usually the result of lazy or lacking research.

The second reason, is valid if that's the story the author wants to tell. Perhaps they've set up a world whose current situation encourages lawlessness and violence, sexual and otherwise, and are telling a story about how we got here, or how we're getting out of here.

[(Anonymous)]

To address this and, strangely, the argument about poetry: A secondary world usually is populated with, if not exclusively, human beings. Human beings that probably speak English. If you're a human being who speaks English but you demand that your secondary world has more realistic differences of dominant species and vocabulary, then I suppose your purity of principle deserves... acknowledgement.

But a "secondary world" might be only a part of our own world that you aren't familiar with. There was that one which seemed to borrow British and European place names without rhyme, a-ha, or reason, and then it turned out that it simply was set in New Zealand.

Given a secondary world which contains human beings, whether people are and aren't respectful of each other's bodies and other property or dignity depends on the setting's legal rights, police force, bearing of arms including magic and psychic powers, and of course, the gods, who may be seen and heard in such a setting more than they are in ours.

And then it's a question of whether an author wants to analyse human inconsiderate urges or just to enjoy them.

And on the original point: if the setting appears to be for instance mostly 19th century Europe but with domesticated dragons in an important role (I think that's a thing), can it be said that this has nothing to do with actual historic Europe?

[elusis]

Authors are free to choose to do so. And readers are free to judge them for how, or why, or when, they choose to do it.

[(Anonymous)]

And yet I just read `The emperors hands', and cannot read it without analysing it through #ownvoices. It is a secondary world fantasy, teh author's politics are excellent, it is sweet and progressive and vaguely charming (if about 200 pages too long -- it really needed an editor. Too many repititions).

But --- the `wide sea' cultures are _recognisably_ appropriated mish mashes of specific actual cultures, here. I have not finished understanding how this is problematic, or indeed if it is. I'm pondering. I suspect so, despite the luminosity of the racial politics.

I read it quickly, after reading her 6 green&dart novels, set in the same continuity. They started cosy fantasy and then descended in books 4-6 into a version of 1970s fantasy childrens literature--- very pseudo-Welsh and very very crypto-christian.

The narrator's internal voice was supeficially different in the two series, but the writing was fairly similar; the religion component overwhelming in the green&dart books 4-6. I am more tempted to read this as the authors views than as a successful pastiche, but the jury is out.

Either way, they are not for me. I think many would find them comforting.

(Perhaps Goddard would be wise to acknowledge written sources --- either ethnographic or travel narratives of actual cultures, or the specific trove of novels which invented or appropriated the tropes she fanfics on. Given how sweetly anti-racist, anti-sexist, LGBTQ+ her work is, I doubt much is needed to assuage my concerns.

Or perhaps I put too much weight on this. They are light and fluffy books. Maybe she should indeed not explain. )


---

(so, not so much off topic as an explicit example of a disagreement with your premise, a book you have already reviewed).

[grimjim]

Yet authors think they're being clever introducing chocolate by another name.

[dragoness_e]

I definitely prefer Tolkien's conceit--that he was the translator of the Red Book of Westmarch, and so used plain old English for languages the hobbits understood.