Welcome to the Harlan Ellison Memorial Personal Boundaries Club

[james_davis_nicoll]

Sad male fan capitalizes on way to be even more creepy to female fans.

As seen on a wide variety of LJ accounts. I have to say there's a clear consensus on the idea of treating women's bodies as public commons and it's not heading in the direction of commutarian touching. Who could have predicted that outcome?

Comments

[childe.livejournal.com]

That's my experience and interpretation of the crux of the matter. If a man asks me if he can touch my breasts or engage in some other form of intimacy with me, the question implies to me the expectation that the default will be the affirmative.

Egads, if I'd known this growing up, I would have been a far more confident person. I always expect "no". *shrug*

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming that you wouldn't have wanted a 'yes' that was based not on an autonomous decision but was driven by reflex, fear, or self-preservation. Most men I know really don't want that and some are genuinely troubled that societal programming has made them question even a sincere consent from a loved one. Confidence, to me, would be borne of self-esteem and would eliminate the need to be affirmed by a positive answer.

I'm describing a toxic system. Better would be one in which you aren't suffering insecurity and the other person isn't potentially acting from a position that's comparatively disempowered. I've said 'no' to someone and then gone on to have a great time with them, at that point and in future. Saying 'no' wasn't a value judgment about them as a person, certainly.

[childe.livejournal.com]

You are correct in that it stemmed (and sometimes still does) from insecurity. Whether it's from a broken system, upbringing, whatever, it's there.

I put forth that in a gathering like PenguiCon, there tends to be less typical societal programming in place, due to the type of person that generally attends. Wouldn't that context also make it less likely that the actions taking place there are driven by typical societal programming, such as reinforcing the male-dominating paradigm?

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't that context also make it less likely that the actions taking place there are driven by typical societal programming, such as reinforcing the male-dominating paradigm?

This isn't really my experience. In my experience, there's more naivete and more good-will, but there's no less influence from the overwhelming social paradigm. There is, I will say, greater expression of alternative values, but that is not the same as being free from the underlying indoctrination. There's a real difference between being alternative and actively rejecting one's programming, at least to me. Part of it is because many people are never genuinely challenged on these points. I've been working on being a feminist since I was 12 (that would be about 26 years), with my partners as allies, and I am still falling over my conditioning. It's like fish not knowing water is wet. We can't help it, but we HAVE to if we're going to be good to each other.

[dlganger.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, no. In every con I've gone to before I stopped going, the vast majority of behavior was fueled by an underlying sense of "well, at least here among my peers I can have what I deserve!"

[snarkhunter.livejournal.com]

I'm not really in this discussion, and I've never been to a con as such (been to con/academic conferences, which are a little different), but think about how geeky boys suffer from lack of self-esteem and rejection. Think about what male dominated environments the sf/f, gaming, and geek communities are.

Now imagine being a shy, geeky girl who's been just as rejected as those guys in that environment. Some of them don't want you to be there. You just want to be accepted among your peers, and then they want to touch you. Talk about conditioning!

(By the way, I do NOT think that is what went on in the original version of the project. My concerns are solely located in the call for the project to become a movement.)

[ambitious-wench.livejournal.com]

Why are you implying that your confidence is dependent on getting a "yes"?
How confident would a "yes" that had been pre-conditioned by fear of retribution for saying no make you?

Did the expected "no" ever stop you from asking? If so, good. Your lack of self confidence is a small price to pay to keep the women around you from having to say yes or no to being groped.