It is a truth universally acknowledged

[james_davis_nicoll]

That any thread that begins by pointing out why stealth in space is impossible will rapidly turn into a thread focusing on schemes whereby stealth in space might be achieved.

Comments

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

I have found the same with discussions of faster-than-light travel.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

And the schemes will recapitulate points found here. (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth)

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

It's really very simple -- start out by positing distances and speeds where the things we know anything about aren't relevant (because the information won't get there in time to be tactically relevant), and then define the behavior of the *other* things you made up so that stealth is possible. What's the problem?

Even just in a single solar system, radar isn't much good at picking out drifting spaceships from among the asteroids. And all the terrestrial work on radar-stealthy aircraft should apply to spacecraft out there, too; just, there's the added advantage of millions of other targets to hide among.

Of course, an operating reaction drive of any power is another matter entirely. That's hard to hide (Smith's "flare baffles" had to have immensely underestimated how big the flare would be).

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

1. Obviously, the night is a time of secrets.

2. The people who want to read about stealth in space have little interest in technological limits.

3. profit!

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Also, spaceships are kind of like submarines, so.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

Who said anything about radar?

It's heat. And not just an operating engine.

One thing I liked about the game Mass Effect was the background bit where the ship Normandy has a prototype stealth system, which works by temporarily storing the heat in sinks within the hull...but it can only operate for an hour or two before the crew starts to bake. Visible stealth is, of course, impossible.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

And the schemes will recapitulate points found here. (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth)

I'm enjoying the submarine metaphor

[liveavatar.livejournal.com]

It makes for great mental book-cover paintings, with submarines surfacing from and diving into the aether.

Unfortunately, there's no immediately apparent place to "run deep." That we currently know of.

[timgueguen.livejournal.com]

Or space colonisation, to use last fall's thread on Charlie Stross's blog as an exmaple. "Waaah, you don't have a naive faith in space colonies so you're a horrible luddite who hates the human spirit!"

Re: I'm enjoying the submarine metaphor

[kgbooklog.livejournal.com]

submarines surfacing from and diving into the aether

I think this could work (as a silly story idea). The "surface" of the aether could be fuzzily defined by gravity wells.

Re: I'm enjoying the submarine metaphor

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Glen Cook had his "climbers" hide in alternate universes, as I recall.

[wakboth.livejournal.com]

I love the "spaceships as subs" model of space warfar, even though it has no bearing with the reality. Sometimes, coolness triumphs the realism.

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

"Hard" science fiction as a stylistically deficient form of magic realism: discuss.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

But can't realism be cool?

[avram]

You're talking about SF with real science, right? No cloaking devices or hyperspace heat sinks?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Re: I'm enjoying the submarine metaphor

[montedavis.livejournal.com]

UFOs aren't alien spacecraft. They're the periscopes and snorkels of alien subaethercraft that are curled up in Kaluza-Klein dimensions.

"Run silent, run compactified."

Corruption-proof

[montedavis.livejournal.com]

The good news is that these people rate outer space very highly.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Tell me about it. When writing SF games, I find it nifty and interesting that communications and sensors are both very fast and very long range, while actually being able to get to or affect some other ship takes a lot of effort and time. Similarly, I like the idea of having instantaneous communications and near perfect navigation on even the most newly settled colony world, but that actually getting (for example) a rescue party to someone in trouble can be a whole lot harder and more time consuming than talking to them. However, I've dealt with more than one RPG company who simply didn't want to hear this - they wanted unreliable planetary communications and submarine warfare in space...

[(Anonymous)]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that any thread that begins by pointing out why stealth in space is impossible will rapidly turn into a thread whereby the scientifically illiterate will propose physically impossible schemes by which they believe stealth in space will be achieved.

[scentofviolets.livejournal.com]

Actually, the way these discussions typically run is that both parties agree that directive radiating is possible. The anti-stealth types point out that in that case you need an network of sensors that the radiative cones will slice through, and with a big enough sensor array this must happen. Then the pro-stealth people will say that they will simply radiate in a different direction. At which point the anti-stealth people will say that this is not possible because you have to know where the sensors are.

Game over then occurs when the pro-stealth types point out that in that case the anti-stealth people are assuming that their sensors can be stealthed, a contradiction.

There are other issues, like spatial and time resolution, but that's the gist of these types of threads.

[traviswells.livejournal.com]

It's a problem like the Monty Hall problem or that whole airplane+treadmill mess.
Just difficult enough that people with a little to some scientific knowledge can see the "obvious" (and wrong) solution immediately, while it requires more in-depth study to reach the correct answer.

It's a devious mental trap, since people on both sides immediately start attempting to convert the other side, and usually fail.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

No. Pretty much by definition.

[scentofviolets.livejournal.com]

Are you suggesting that the anti-stealth types don't have that much scientific knowledge? I'm thinking it's more a matter of committing to a position in a way that's difficult to undo without a severe perceived loss of face.

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, your mind must be at least this broad: >< to participate in this discussion.