Given open antisemitism is mainstream again in the US

[james_davis_nicoll]

Should I start including Jewish creators in with POCs in my month end stats?

Comments

[alexseanchai]

I vote yes, but I should observe I'm neither Jewish nor a person of color.

[rydra_wong]

As a white demi-Jew, I think it's not helpful to conflate white Jews with POC, anti-Semitism and racism being two separate (though frequently related) axes. However, could be worth keeping stats on percentages of Jewish creators.

... OTOH, saying that, I am aware of the risk of them being used to show that there are Too Many Jews in SF/F, that we have secretly infiltrated and are controlling etc. etc. etc.

(Or, alternatively, "Look, we can't be racist, we have Jewish authors!")

This could be a tricky one.

[thnidu]

I'm Jewish (and white and male), and I was feeling waffly about these issues when I saw your post. Then I clicked to see the comments and saw that Rydra had expressed them already. Hence the icon.

[coffeeandink]

As a white Jew, this idea makes me really uncomfortable. Given the accelerating Anti-Semitism, maybe I'll feel differently in a month, but for now I think that collapsing Anti-Semitism into racism erases some important power differentials and experiences.

[rosefox]

Agreed.

[bibliofile]

What if the stats tracked all religions, or at least the major groups? E.g., Buddhist, Christian, etc.? So many othering opportunities there.

[jwgh]

One man's opinion: Antisemitism has been a problem on both the left and the right for quite some time, so I would say yes. The fact that we're right around the beginning of the 'war on christmas' season also makes it seem somehow particularly appropriate.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

I'd say no, because people can choose to stop being a white Jew but can't choose to stop being a poc and Black Jews are treated differently to white Jews, but you could keep a separate tally of Jewish and Muslim authors (ETA to clarify: especially because some Muslims are white people).

[jwgh]

I don't think people like Bannon are interested in whether or not someone has 'chosen' to stop being Jewish.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

No, neither do I. Nor do I believe racists can accurately categorise people by appearance anyway. Nonetheless, some Jews are also Black, and some Muslims are white, and white Jews/Muslims aren't treated with the same racism as poc.

Race is, of course, a ridiculous unscientific form of categorisation anyway but as white people insist on imposing their racism I unfortunately have to deal with the consequences.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

Interestingly, that would make Heinlein the only straight white male in the Big Three.

[nicole wyatt (from livejournal.com)]

I'd do a separate tally myself.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Did I inadvertently delete a comment? If so, I am not sure how.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

I assume James means ethnic Jews, who are still considered Jews by white supremacists even if they don't practice Judaism. Black Jews are POC no matter what, and white Europeans who convert to Judaism ... well, I doubt Ivanka's facing any antisemitism except through proxy.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

The three-way with Hubbard does not disqualify him?

[elusis.livejournal.com]

Anti-Jewish prejudice is anti-semitism.

Anti-Roma prejudice is anti-ziganism.

Is there a word for anti-Muslim prejudice? I am tired of racists being able to say "Muslim isn't a RACE" and thereby de-rail efforts to point out their prejudice.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

"Islamophobia" but the usual response is either "it's rational to fear and hate Muslims because they're all murdering raping scum who want to kill us all" or "you're trying to smear legitimate critique of a religion as something analogous to racism".

[elusis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and anything with the -phobia stem is subject to clobber-verse-style "disputes" in the form of "phobia means FEAR and I'm not AFRAID of them; I don't like them for legitimate reasons!"

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

ethnic Jews, who are still considered Jews by white supremacists even if they don't practice Judaism

Perhaps you need practical examples. If fleeing the US as refugees under false papers, who would find it more difficult to disguise their appearance: Marge Piercy or N.K Jemisin? Who is most likely to be stopped by a racist stranger, whether a policeman or a white supremacist terrorist? If you still don't get the difference between being a white Jew and a Black person then, as usual, I'll give up and assume you're trolling rather than that stupid.

P.S. I'm multiracial and in both cases, fleeing Jews and fleeing non-white people, I can draw on my own family history to know what the realities are.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

There should be a category like non-white/POC for non-Christians who are hated by white supremacist terrorists: Jews, Muslims, and presumably also Hindus (especially the nationalists).*

* No, I have no idea if Buddhists are hated in this context or if Buddhism is a religion but I'm guessing right-wing Christian hate preachers claim Buddhists are hated by the Christian god and are going to hell too.

[resonant.livejournal.com]

"bigotry" might be a useful catch-all, and covers sexism too.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

Okay, so Jews have an easier time fleeing persecution, but the potential for persecution and fleeing is still there. Are we supposed to ignore that? What about Hispanics who can pass for white? Or Native Americans? Afghans? Iranians? People of mixed race? Why should the test be, "Can they sneak through a police checkpoint?" instead of, "Will they have to leave their home when Steve Bannon calls for ethnic cleansing?"

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs are a subset of Muslims in the White Nationalist classification system.

[elusis.livejournal.com]

"Bigot" has already been declared a verbum non grata equal to "racist" in talking about the right wing, open to charges of "you're the real ____ because you brought it up."

Also, one sometimes wants to be specific, not general.

[elusis.livejournal.com]

Well, non-Christian works, but I prefer to define people by what they are, rather than what they aren't. That whole "I am normal; everyone else is different" center-of-the-universe thing.