"Marion Zimmer Bradley: It’s Worse Than I Knew"

[james_davis_nicoll]

memetic prophylactic recommended

Comments

[jjhunter]

oh god.

(Thank you for signal boosting; if there's anything we as a community can do to make sure neither of those people harm a child ever again, it's worth bearing with the nausea of knowing enough details to dispel any wisp of temptation to doubt or reject.)

that being said: oh god. I do not have words for this beyond desire to protect the victims affected from further harm and to projectile vomit my unsettled stomach on their abusers. How divorced from human feeling would someone have to be to—

god.

[kate_nepveu]

Bradley and Breen are both dead. This was prompted initially by a tribute post to Bradley that didn't mention her--self-admitted--acquiescence in Breen's chronic sexual abuse.

[gale_storm]

...

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..

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Thank you for sharing this, and now I really understand how much a memetic prophylactic could be needed.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

That's sad and upsetting news, and my heart goes out to Ms. Greyland.

[seth ellis (from livejournal.com)]

When I first learned about Walter Breen's activities, I did a bit of research, and there were dark hints that though her abetting was well known, Bradley had known/done more than was publicly acknowledged. There was nothing definite, but this is, sadly, not a surprise.

Interesting also that on Twitter, the people whose reaction to the new allegations is "I'd heard that some time ago" are all women, who apparently were alerted through the Anti-Creeper Ladies' Mutual Warning Society that stood in for actual community standards for so long.

ETA: I should also have said, sympathies and respect to Greyland for speaking out.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Ditto on your ETA.

I always worry about the ACLMWS's because word of mouth so often misses people. But it's better than nothing.

[vschanoes.livejournal.com]

In the police depositions Goldin put on-line, it's acknowledged that she molested her son and daughter and actively thwarted a foster child trying to escape. That's why I'd heard.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

I knew because I went to the damn Google and looked it up. I saw Moira telling her side of the story on Wikipedia and Amazon months ago, maybe over a year ago, plus of course the court documents that have been online since 2000. Then there were the mentions of her testimony in her damn obituary, as well as articles and comments on Bleeding Cool, Feministe, The Straight Dope, etc. There's a lengthy thread on RPG.net that has a sub-topic which is actually pretty anti-MZB, so the Operation: Ignore (as Carlos called it) going on with this latest round of so-called revelations is pretty chuckleworthy. When RPG.net gets it but you [1] don't, then that's a wake-up call.

Amidst all this were the usual bullshit apologist tactics of the SF/F crowd, like Ansible calling Goldin's "tell a friend" email option on his website a "dirty trick". And the stuff that conflates child molestation with homosexuality, and calls MZB "controversial" as though being feminist and aiding and abetting a pederast were the same thing. That article and others went to great pains to paint MZB as someone who was betrayed by a husband who had done her and her children wrong, while completely ignoring MZB's editing help of Breen's pederasty text, and her own testimony.

The info was out there. Hell, the info was right here in James' journal, talked about casually on a regular basis, so the people gasping in shock because They Never Knew are not particularly convincing.

[1] Not the YOU you, the general you. I'm essentially using your post as a springboard for comments, which I hope is okay.

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

If you want to read something terribly sad, and probably not in the way the author intended, pick up a copy of the Hugo and Nebula winner for best novel Among Others by Jo Walton. oh, also the British Fantasy Award.

[murasaki-1966.livejournal.com]

Oh god. That is horrible.

[dryadinthegrove]

Oh shit.

I just literally groaned and covered my eyes after that opening sentence.

Oddly enough, I'm having a cleanout of my home library, and I got rid of almost all of MZB's books. I was feeling guilty about that, but no more.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Sigh.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

Damn. I am so sorry for her daughter.

And, yeah, those books are leaving my house; not as some sort of posthumous virtual punishment, but because I won't be able to read them again.

[ravenskyewalker.livejournal.com]

Oh... God. I read Moira's opening words about being three when it first happened, cursed, jumped out of my chair and walked away, then came back to deal with reading all of it. That is just vile. And from following links and reading further info, I see that an unknown number of people are attempting to discredit Moira by claiming she's been in mental institutions all her life. *sigh*

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I keep coming back to this. I guess I know (because people are annoying), but why on earth does this discredit her? I mean, why would her having had to resort to intensive therapy like that be an argument /against/ her being abused?

[cofax7]

Oh, good Christ.

I still have some Darkover novels in boxes somewhere: I guess I'll contribute them to the library book sale, because god knows I'm never rereading them.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I'd been thinking of rereading some of them, but I'm not doing so now (shudder). I'd previously assumed she was merely vastly in denial of much of what happened around her, but clearly I was very wrong.

[treddytrafalgar.livejournal.com]

Is this why last week's Bradley tribute post on tor.com has been taken down?

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

Nope. The Tor post came down before this latest story got out.

[etumukutenyak.livejournal.com]

Another former fan getting rid of my books too. I'm tempted to burn them, though, along with the Anthony books, as I can't stomach the thought of unsuspecting innocents admiring their books.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I'll put mine into the library book sale; if people read them in ignorance, as I did, they aren't endorsing the abuse, and the money can go to worthier books for public circulation.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

I am so sorry for her daughter.

Sometimes I get caught up in rhetoric, and say people should be blamed for abuse if they advocate for it (supporting abusers, silencing victims, etc.) Then something like this comes to my attention, and I realize I don't really believe it. When I thought MZB supported and defended her child-abusing husband, I was outraged, but I could separate that from my feelings about her work. Now that I see she, herself, abused children...my outrage overflows.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I can ethically justify the difference between "knew a child was being abused and did nothing" and "abused a child herself", but it's sure an emotional distinction for me.

[tavella.livejournal.com]

You know, one of the things that gets me -- you can still see people going on about Breendoggle occasionally. And I don't think any one of the people that got up in arms about the horror of banning a child rapist who was using cons to hunt for victims ever apologized. Maybe 50 years ago they were ignorant enough to think it was okay for him to fuck 11 year olds because "freedom" and "non-discrimination", but they goddamn well knew by the 21st century.

A whole lot of kids got abused because fandom decided to "protect their own", and I see a line of that thought running right down to Wiscon just last month. And it's about goddamn time it ended.

[martin-wisse.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that struck me too when I read about Breendoggle.

[(Anonymous)]

So, I understand why you used the MPR tag - but usually you use that for linking to writing/writers that are THEMSELVES wrong/awful/etc.

I know that you don't in this case mean that, but it does strongly give that impression.

Marna, too tired to log in.

[graydon saunders (from livejournal.com)]

Pretty sure the historical context of the MPR tag is "this will hurt your brain" rather than "writer/other public figure" commits atrocity of moral thinking". Though the later has been much more common lately.

[neowolf2.livejournal.com]

Where is the money from MZB's literary estate going, do you know?

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

The Marion Zimmer Bradley Literary Works Trust, administered by Ann Sharp. But I dunno whom the trust actually benefits.

[felila.livejournal.com]

I used to quite like MZB, and still have many of her books (packed away at the moment, like most of my SFF). It came to seem thin gruel and I haven't read any MZB in years.

I think I did most of my buying and reading before I heard about Breen; I think that would have been on rec.arts.sf.fandom. I was squicked by what I heard, but not to the extent that people here seem to be. I was part of the let-it-all-hang-loose 70s. Never had anything to do with underage folks, nor knew anyone who did ... but I remember the dogged determination to flout all the bourgeois hang-ups. If you have a shaky moral compass, that can lead you into a morass.

Never heard anyone talking about MZB committing abuse, just the enabling.

I am not sure that knowing this now would taint her books if I re-read them. Perhaps the books with group sex. Do not remember anything in the books re sex with minors.

Seems as if there's a bit of a lynch mob atmosphere here. I do not think it necessary to burn her books if you disapprove of the abuse.

The attack on Jo Walton also seem somewhat off-kilter. I've read Among Others twice and thought it very clear that the narrator was accepting, in a stolid, naive way, things that the reader would find unacceptable.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

A prominent minority religion, the cristoforos, is male-only and is known for adult males having sex with their younger initiates, to the point that people outside the religion accuse one another of being cristoforos as an insult.

A major character in some books, Dyan Ardais, is a child molester who uses his political power to get away with what he does.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is a perfect example of separating the artist from the art. I mean, it's absolutely horrible, of course, but I've read her books several times now and thoroughly enjoyed them. I don't feel bad, either, because it wasn't as if there was anything within them that even indicated her depravity.

Here's a hypothetical situation: what if someone discovered that J.K. Rowling was a pedophile (obviously it isn't true, so no libel intended). Would that make her Harry Potter series any less amazing? Not really, no. Sure, I'd lose every ounce of respect I had for the author, but that won't stop me from loving Harry Potter's character.