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[james_davis_nicoll]

Don't point out the photo of former Worldcon chairs is composed mostly of men and almost entirely of white people.

Comments

[carloshasanax.livejournal.com]

"concern trolling over the need to provide special food preparation areas for “Kosher Jews”."

oh this must have been a laff riot.

[sean o'hara (from livejournal.com)]

I have to wonder, are there any Lovecraft fans who don't acknowledge that his works are full of racism?

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure I've seen the "just a man of his time" defense.

[cmattg.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but that's still acknowledging it's there.

[wakboth.livejournal.com]

IIRC, Lovecraft was actually unusually racist (and in unusual way) for his time. He got better towards his death, but still.

[agharta75.livejournal.com]

There is the "yeah, he was really racist but he started getting better during the Depression" argument. He did become pro-Roosevelt.

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

I liked the "Edgar Rice Burroughs wasn't racist because he was pro-miscegenation -- with Martians" explanation.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Ummm...Maybe. But that may be mostly because the Cardinal Sin in fandom is to be Boring, and ever since I got into fandom (c. 1958) the vast majority of Con Chairs have been White Males. Same old, same old. Much of that time -- until quite recently -- so have been the readers of science fiction &/or the people who consider themselves Fans. And there is, IMHO, no "assumption" about White Males being much more likely to have the time and money to do such things. That was (& still is) pretty much just a fact. (Okay, a digusting fact, but....) I'm not sure how much all this Signifies. After my rather close observation of WorldCons & WesterCons for six decades, I'd venture to suggest that most Chairs are pretty much Figureheads -- Substantial People who are useful to point to when dealing with Hotels, Convention Centers, & other organizations.

Usually, I think, the people who do almost all the Creative work are the Department Heads, and those who do the physical Work are those who operate under them. I'm convinced that a large majority of these have been women since at least the mid-'50s, and that the only reason more of these (both women & men) aren't White is simply that there haven't been enough non-Whites there & volunteering. Hey, as a Certified Old Male White Geezer, I don't give a damn about the gender or color of the people who make the Con a pleasant experience for me, and I'm delighted to hold doors open for people who are carrying things (especially Party Supplies, who are the ones to Follow), and to be blunt about it I do this without actually noticing their physical appearance.

[redbird]

Somehow, that "the cardinal sin is to be boring" never stops people from using the exact same "we aren't racists, now stop complaining" arguments for the umpteenth time. I don't buy the idea that "why are there so few nonwhites here?" is inherently more boring than "I don't know, but it's not important" when the latter is repeated over and over. I don't, in fact, buy the idea that the question is inherently boring at all: but even if it was, your line of reasoning only works if "we don't care" is an inherently more interesting statement.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

ever since I got into fandom (c. 1958) the vast majority of Con Chairs have been White Males. Same old, same old. Much of that time -- until quite recently -- so have been the readers of science fiction &/or the people who consider themselves Fans

....... define "quite recently."

[(Anonymous)]

Good point, though perhaps too vague for me to pin down to a point. Maybe the mid-'90s marked a point of reasonable balance in my fandom circles... which are mostly print-oriented. Some Visual Media fandoms seemed to approach gender-balance much earlier.

Don Fitch

[jayblanc.livejournal.com]

I'm actually genuinely considering going to the Business Meeting at Loncon to stand up and ask for WSFS to hire a diversity consultant. How well do you think that would go down?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

May I suggest a small change? Ask for WSFS to hire a qualified diversity consultant.

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

How would that work, exactly? Does WSFS even have any money? As distinct from the organizations operating individual Worldcons, which do have a cash flow?

[awesomeaud.livejournal.com]

Is that something you can find in the Yellow Pages?

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Well, perhaps I'll be able to watch the video, after the fact, at least. That'll give me time to make popcorn.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

That photo has Worldcon chairs going back *at least* 40 years, though. And was missing several female Worldcon chairs that could have been in it.

So, it's not very accurately representative of the current state of fandom.

And it's really kind of a buzz-kill for people to jump on our nostalgic photo showing umpteen generations of Worldcon chairs to beat us about the head and shoulders with. Maybe particularly when we'd just awarded Worldcon to a bid with two female co-chairs.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Bawwwwww, it always is such a buzz kill for the powerful people in charge of stuff when it's pointed out that for "umpteen generations" they've been excluding large groups of other people. Meanwhile, the people being excluded don't have feelings, I guess.

What specific part of about James' posts on the subject would you characterize as "beating someone about the head and shoulders"? Or is it just observing an obvious fact that's now considered an attack?

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

I was talking about the original blog post and much of the reaction to it, not James' pointer. A picture commemorating the former Worldcon chairs (people in the photo went back to before my time in fandom, I believe, and I got involved in 1972), is grabbed and used to "prove" the discrimination practiced in current fandom. It's bullshit; that photo covers more than a generation of Worldcons, some people were missing (you only get who shows up at the convention and then at the photo shoot!). And, somehow, the bid just chosen to host the 2015 Worldcon was chaired by two women -- which was never a discussion point anywhere I heard or read about it, so apparently it's not controversial not something anybody thought could be used against that bid or for another bid.

There are things to be talked about with how fandom treats women, I know. Not letting them volunteer for the hard jobs doesn't seem like one of them, to me. But, if it is, that photo doesn't prove or disprove it. That photo commemorates the people who have kept Worldcon going for the last couple of generations, which is an important thing deserving commemoration.

Your facts are not in evidence to me. I haven't seen large groups of people being excluded, and I have seen lots of women in top-level (chair and exec) and the next level down and everywhere else running conventions.

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

Is it intended to be representative of the current state of fandom, or of the history of fandom?

Can you see why straight white males might not be particularly pleased by this history?

From the comments

[(Anonymous)]

"As you know, convention runners in fandom are not paid. Your bold proposal that qualified people of color be rounded up and forced to work in convention running without pay whether or not they wish to volunteer has no bad historical precedents and can only end really well."



Doug M.

Re: From the comments

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

:slow blink:

Re: From the comments

[seth ellis (from livejournal.com)]

Yes, that's a special one.

Perecentages

[colemanus.livejournal.com]

Hello there is not enough Black, Hispanic or Asians to make an impact on Worldcons to allow the creation of diversity on the racial issue.

As Sam Moskowitz wrote' there has been one colored person in many groups in Fandom since 1930."

I do not feel that Fandom is bigoted. With only one Black person in the groups of Fandom how can there be diversity unless you recruit some.

I am happy to say I am Black American who was on the BOD(2008-2011) of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Club. The first one in 79 years.

In my time from 1995 to now there has been 5 Black Americans who were either active members or visiting LASFS. And 19 who went to Loscon over that time. There were 5 Hispanics also. There were just very little Black and Hispanics visiting the club.

LASFS wasnt bigoted, they elected me to the board because they did not want the other person, probably 4 voted because I am Black but if that was true I would have been on Board in 2005.

[dbdatvic.livejournal.com]

... how DO you do it, James? It's something in the html markup, isn't it?

--Dave, in awe