Question for the lawyers

[james_davis_nicoll]

A Neanderthal steps through from another history; due to various events he strikes and kills someone here.

Can he be arrested for murder? Does a Neanderthal automatically count as a human in the eyes of the law? If so, how far from homo sapiens sapiens does a hominid have to be before they don't count as a person by default?

Comments

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

Chimp/human has been tried -- didn't take at all. Don't chimpanzees have a couple more chromosomes than homo sapiens?

[bruce munro (from livejournal.com)]

Come to think of it, you may be right [1]. Now, if we only had a Homo Habilis handy...


[1] About the chromosomes: I'm not questioning your statement on it being tried.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

Now, if we only had a Homo Habilis handy...

USENET is right over there ->

[bruce munro (from livejournal.com)]

Zing!

[zotz]

One more pair. Human chromosome 2 was formed by the fusion of two ancestral chromosomes, the equivalent of the imaginatively-titled chimp chromosomes 2a and 2b.

[neowolf2.livejournal.com]

Chimps have one more chromosome than humans. The fusion event occurred before neanderthals arose (sorry Mr. Sawyer).

It's interesting to ask how interfertile neanderthals and humans were. As I understand it, the genetic evidence seems to show selection against some swaths of the neanderthal genome, possibly indicating fertility problems when crossing with H. sapiens.

As for human/ape hybrids. This reminds me of an old joke.

A scientist puts an want ad in the paper (this is an old joke, remember): "Man wanted for human/ape crossbreeding experiment. $5,000."

He soon gets a call from a subject. "I'll participate in your experiment on two conditions."

"First, my identity must forever be kept entirely secret."

"And second... can I pay the $5,000 in installments?"

Not entirely a joke

[greatwhiterat.livejournal.com]

Sadly, this seems to actually happen.
http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/yo1-v14n10

Re: Not entirely a joke

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

[screed riddled with profanity] [no words really]

I'm going to the special hell

[fridgepunk.livejournal.com]

There's one word that covers that: Ook.

Re: Not entirely a joke

[neowolf2.livejournal.com]

I really don't want to click that link.

Re: Not entirely a joke

[nathan helfinstine (from livejournal.com)]

I did, and regret it.

[iayork.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to ask how interfertile neanderthals and humans were. As I understand it, the genetic evidence seems to show selection against some swaths of the neanderthal genome, possibly indicating fertility problems when crossing with H. sapiens.

The evidence is that interfertility was very low, with fertile crosses happening less than once per generation over the whole population. In particular, male neandertal/sapiens hybrids were probably all sterile, which is a common pattern for species that have almost but not quite completely speciated.

My own personal theory: We know that as closely-related species begin to speciate, there's selection pressure to reduce inter-species hybridization (because hybrids are less fit than either pure species). Eventually there are physical and genetic incompatibilities that make hybridization impossible, but earlier there are often behavioral factors that make interspecies breeding less likely. Bird songs, for example, or specific mating behaviors.

We also know about "the uncanny valley", the phenomenon in which things (like robots or animations) that are nearly but not quite human suddenly become creepy and horrifying.

My theory is that the uncanny valley is the leftover behavioral adaptation that prevent H. sapiens from frequently interbreeding with Neanderthals, Denisovians, and whatever the mysterious third Homo species was that was recently detected genetically. (Obviously this would not be 100% effective; Darwin spent a third of his book talking about variation within species.)

If so, then our reaction to the sight of a walking, talking Neanderthal would be instant revulsion and horror, which wouldn't bode well for her fair and balanced trial.

[scott-sanford.livejournal.com]

Do you - he asked with trepidation - have a reference for that? I've heard rumors, and it's certainly been discussed in the abstract, but I've not seen anything from a plausible source.

Of course, professional ethics aside, who'd want to write that paper? You'd be The Chimp Guy the rest of your career...

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

http://io9.com/the-man-who-tried-to-make-human-ape-hybrids-513278104

It was in 1920s Russia. At that time it was still thought that humans had 48 chromosomes.