When it all went wrong

[james_davis_nicoll]

From a previous comment on my LJ:

I thought there was a significant contingent of politicians who feel most of the developments since [The development of agriculture/the Industrial Revolution/The Great Depression/Women's Lib/Etc (Pick one)] have been mistakes and that if only we could set the clock back, everything would be fine.

Or at least better than it is.

A Canadian example of a When It All Went Wrong (WIAWW) moment is the Avro Arrow, something that many Canadians are still bitching about (Mind you, Canada is a nation with a province whose motto is "Je me souviens," but none with the motto "No Use Crying Over Spilled Milk"). In fact, my father used to complain bitterly about the cancellation of the Arrow and not only was he not Canadian (until just before he died) but I don't think he was in Canada when the decision was made and he didn't work in aerospace. Complaining about the Arrow decision unites Canadians in one great mopey If Only.

Ken MacLeod chooses Sputnik as a moment when everything went wrong.

Is there any chance someone could offer up some links for Ken to use in his alt-history of space development that don't require him to cite a James P. Hogan essay? Yes, I saw the disclaimer in MacLeod's essay.

Comments

What color is the sky in your world?

[chrisweuve.livejournal.com]

First, it's not a paper aircraft if it is flying. Yes, it may not have gone through OPEVAL and reached IOC. But that doesn't mean that they did not have a chance to judge its performance at the earlier stages of the test plan. A full performance appraisal may not be possible, but claiming this means it's a "paper aircraft" says more about your ignorance than the plane's capability.

Second, there are a lot of people who fly (or flew, in the case of the Lightning) point defense interceptors who would be really surprised to discover that they don't exist. The point [sic] about point defense interceptors, as opposed to area defense interceptors, is that they are deployed to defend specific targets, which means they launch when a specific target is under threat and are usually recalled (to rearm, refuel, and reset) when the threat goes away. This may or may not involve flying CAP for some period of time -- that "launch / attack / land" profile mentioned is very general and by no means implies a brief flight. And in that scenario, time to altitude (either from the ground, or from patrol altitude to higher altitude, if the plane's radar performance against low-level targets requires it to stay low while on patrol) is very definitely a (but not the sole) measure of combat capability.

Re: What color is the sky in your world?

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

Merely flying isn't enough. Merely going through a limited test program isn't enough. (Especially when the test enviroment is utterly unlike the intended operational enviroment.) It's actual performance it its intended role is completely and utterly unknown. Period. You can't claim the TSR2 was an 'outstanding bomber' - because it never bombed anything, even in tests. Period.

All the handwaving and cheerleading and ad hominiem attacks in the world won't change these simple brutal facts. It's a paper aircraft. Period.

And having repeated myself multiple times, it is now obvious you are incapable of understanding that point.

Re: What color is the sky in your world?

[chrisweuve.livejournal.com]

I'm hardly cheerleading for the TSR2, as I have no idea about the specifics of that aircraft. I jumped in only because I happen to know a little bit (professionally, I might add) about this field, and because I saw some completely illogical statements being made.

What I do know, though, is that if the aircraft has already gone supersonic in a test flight, they have some idea how the aircraft performs. So you might not be able to tell whether it would have passed all of its OPEVAL milestones (or what mods would have to be made in the process), but you can tell if it's a dog or not. Dismissing anything short of a completed OPEVAL program by calling such an aircraft a "paper aircraft" is ludicrous.

As for ad hominem attacks: you've been consistently unwilling to listen to any opinions that don't fit with your distorted view of the world. Given that you insist of referring to an aircraft that has broken the sound barrier as a "paper aircraft," we shouldn't be surprised that pointing out your errors is an "ad hominem attack."