Date: 2017-07-16 11:55 pm (UTC)
magedragonfire: (Default)
From: [personal profile] magedragonfire
The internet seems to be losing its collective shit about this, in both positive and negative ways.

I stopped watching shortly after 12 came along (grumpy, sarcastic men do not do it for me as protagonists), but I might just give the new series a shot.

I do wonder, though - did the same fools complaining about how the show is RUINED FOREVER now have the same reaction about the Master's current incarnation? Why didn't they stop watching then? (Didn't she turn out to be one of the better things about the newest seasons, from what I've heard?)

Date: 2017-07-17 01:25 am (UTC)
ravenskyewalker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravenskyewalker
I'm willing to accept her, if she's done right. There's no guarantee of that, because Chris Chibnall wrote the garbage Torchwood episode "Cyberwoman," so if he manages to write a female Doctor respectfully, I may actually watch his DW. Wasn't going to, until this development...

Unlike magedragonfire, I love Capaldi's Doctor, and am apparently supposed to beg eternal forgiveness for not being a Tennant fan (but he reminds me of all the entitled, sleazy white boys I grew up with, whatever he's like in reality, so he wrecked modern DW for me). So, I've been going through quite the silly mourning process due to Capaldi leaving, and have been dreading Chibnall's takeover.

(Have been into DW since 1981. The Doctor has often been grumpy, cranky, sarcastic... so I guess people who single out Capaldi for being terrible don't know much about DW history? So terribly sorry, but he actually had psychological development over his three seasons -- but don't pay attention to me trying to convince anyone of anything.)

Even at my most feminist, I didn't want a female Doctor, because I wanted there to be a good non-stereotypically male role out there. However, I've changed over the years, and these days, I'm kind of into the idea that if it pisses off fandom, go for it, see how it works, and let's just marvel in the firestorm. I've loved Michelle Gomez as a female Master. Let's hope that Whittaker is a good Doctor.
Edited Date: 2017-07-17 01:25 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-17 04:32 pm (UTC)
tavella: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tavella
I like Capaldi as an actor, unfortunately his Doctor is managed by Moffat, whose writing I hate. Individual bits of it can be fine but he was invariably infuriate me if I watch for long. I actually watched a few midseason episodes this year and liked them, because of Bill. And then I got spoiled for the end of the season, and so that was the end of watching.

I'm looking forward to the change to Chibnall because at least he's not Moffat, but that doesn't mean he can't crap the bed on his own. And the complete lack of women writers sure as fuck doesn't help. I love the character, I love the mythos, but goddamn it is such a boy's club.

Date: 2017-07-17 08:16 pm (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
Yeah. I like Capaldi, I can't deal with Moffat, and I'm glad it's being handed off, and am hoping Chibnall does better.

Date: 2017-07-17 08:21 pm (UTC)
commodorified: a capital m, in fancy type, on a coloured background (Default)
From: [personal profile] commodorified
Having seen him in a few things, I conclude I'm not a TEN fan, but do like Tennant. I mention this only because I'd hate for you to be put off of, say, Broadchurch, in which he is very good.

I am excited!

Date: 2017-07-17 01:52 am (UTC)
gothtique: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gothtique
This will definitely be a challenge.
Some of it will depend on the writing.
I have heard rumors that her companion will be gay.
Either way. I am gonna watch it!

Date: 2017-07-17 02:10 am (UTC)
dewline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dewline
Hopeful here.

Date: 2017-07-17 02:45 am (UTC)
heron61: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heron61
I'm mildly hopeful. Chris Chibnall wrote two of the worst early Torchwood episodes (Cyberwoman, and the laughably terrible season 1 finale), but then again, Moffat wrote the best Dr Who episodes under RTD's tenure as showrunner, and while Moffat taking over as showrunner started out OK, especially with the introduction of Clara, the show became an exercise in concentrated misogyny (particularly in Season 8), so maybe Chibnall will prove to be a better showrunner than writer.

I stopped watching after Season 9, which had a surprisingly good finale but was IMHO self-indulgent and terrible for much of it, especially in episodes 10 & 11, but I'll give the new Doctor and showrunner a try and see if I get back into it.

Date: 2017-07-17 02:54 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Yeah, Season 5 was maybe my top favourite ever of NuWho, but it felt like everything after that went downhill pretty fast. I'm excited for the combo of new Doctor + showrunner.

Date: 2017-07-17 03:43 am (UTC)
heron61: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heron61
I agree. Season 1 was awesome once it got going, but had a number of pretty flat early episodes, and my favorite season would be Season 4, except for the ending, which sucked all my love out of that season. So, I'd agree with you about Season 5.

I don't think things really started downhill until after Amy and Rory left. I remember a number of people (who I mostly still disagree with) talking about the misogyny associated with how Amy Pond was written, but things with Clara started out barely OK and swiftly got worse with both 11 & 12.

Date: 2017-07-17 04:02 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Looking at the list of episodes, there actually were several I really liked in S6 (Doctor's Wife, Rebel Flesh/Almost People, Girl Who Waited) and I thought River and Eleven were sweet together, but I personally hate female body horror pregnancy stories and that storyline was impossible to avoid. I also liked Asylum of the Daleks and Power of Three in S7. But after Amy and Rory left, yeah, it just wasn't the same, and I felt like Clara never really cohered as a character. I'm the one person on the planet (besides my husband) who didn't like Name of the Doctor, too. We tried the first few Capaldi eps, but fell behind and realized we weren't interested enough to catch up and that was pretty much that. I also didn't really care for Missy. Like John Simms, she was just too completely OTT for me. But I've rewatched S5 a lot because it's such a joy.

Date: 2017-07-17 03:09 am (UTC)
ravenskyewalker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravenskyewalker
How about trying out Series 10, which has Bill Potts, a black lesbian?

How DW became "an exercise in concentrated misogyny" when Clara was allowed to become an essentially immortal cosmic adventurer (which is apparently allowed when it's the Doctor, but not for a woman)... sorry, I don't get it. (All the anti-Moffat examples you can give me, I can give anti-RTD counterexamples, so let's not get into it here. And since you're apparently anti-"Heaven Sent," which I considered stunning work that had a lot of psychological resonance for me... nah, forget it.)

Date: 2017-07-17 03:36 am (UTC)
heron61: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heron61
As I said, I really liked the finale of Season 9, and at least part of my dislike of the rest of that season was the fact that Season 8 was all about The Doctor being portrayed as Clara's abusive and controlling ex, and never remotely getting called on this behavior (and I also find Capaldi annoying enough that "Heaven Sent" really didn't work for me).

I've heard positive things about Season 9, but I've got enough bad feelings about Moffat & Moffat + Capaldi that I seriously doubt that I could give it a fair shake.

Date: 2017-07-17 04:04 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
sorry, I don't get it. (All the anti-Moffat examples you can give me, I can give anti-RTD counterexamples, so let's not get into it here. And since you're apparently anti-"Heaven Sent," which I considered stunning work that had a lot of psychological resonance for me... nah, forget it.)

Dude, I don't know if you mean to be, but you're coming off as really combative and also condescending. Really not everyone is going to agree with you about NuWho and you can't intimidate them into submission.

Date: 2017-07-17 02:53 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I'm surprisingly really happy! I thought there was absolutely no chance, but maybe Moff's departure had something to do with it. I kind of wish it was an older woman, but this actress is supposedly really good, so that's great. I liked Capaldi in other roles, but he was way too harsh for me as the Doctor and I didn't like Clara much either, so the past few seasons were a wash. I've heard good things about Bill though. Maybe she'll come back?

Date: 2017-07-17 03:17 am (UTC)
ravenskyewalker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravenskyewalker
Nope, Moffat kept setting stuff up for a female Doctor (with a female Master, with Clara and Ashildr kind of becoming the Doctor, and other details), but let's reflexively kick him. Chibnall was reported as sniping back at someone on Twitter that if they wanted someone other than a white male as the Doctor, then they were watching the wrong show; either he was trolling, or Moffat talked him around to it. Capaldi became gentler in S10, if the Doctor being cranky is such a problem for people, and Bill was fun (if underdeveloped, because she was really only created as a one-series companion).

Date: 2017-07-17 03:20 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
You're doing the exact opposite of making me interested in your point of view, FYI.

Date: 2017-07-17 06:38 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keith_morrison
I kind of wish it was an older woman

I've seen a few people say this, and I honestly don't understand it. Baker was 40 when he started, Davison 30, Baker 41, McCoy 44, McGann 37, Eccleston 41, Tennant 34, and Smith 26. At 35, Whittaker doesn't stand out from the crowd as being notable for her age.
Edited Date: 2017-07-17 06:39 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-07-19 08:23 am (UTC)
liviapenn: miss piggy bends jail bars (remains sexy while doing so) (Default)
From: [personal profile] liviapenn

Well, a lot of people dislike the trend for younger Doctors and welcomed Capaldi as a nice return to form, so gender aside this would be disappointing for them. But I also think it has something to do with the way actors can get great roles into their sixties and even seventies, but actresses tend to go invisible as they approach 40 (if not before). An older female Doctor would have been a much bolder choice in that sense. There's also the way that male actors are actually allowed to *age*, to show wrinkles and "character" and gray hair, which helps audiences take them more seriously as characters with authority, experience and wisdom. But female actors have to maintain a much younger appearance in order to get hired/stay active.

I mean, David Tennant is 46 now, Eccleston is in his fifties, and both of them (and Capaldi) are still getting high-profile, meaty, interesting protagonist roles and probably will for the next 10 years, despite the fact that none of them are as perfectly flawless-looking as they were in their twenties. There just aren't that many comparably interesting, significant roles for 40 or 50-year old women, and even when there is an "older woman" role it's often played by a younger woman anyway-- there are a million examples of actresses cast in mother roles to actors less than ten years younger than they are, and even more extreme cases like Angelina Jolie playing Colin Farrell's mother in "Alexander" are not that rare. AJ and CF are literally the SAME AGE, but clearly the logic was "ugh, nobody wants to see some old lady, let's cast a young beautiful actress instead." I think Angelina Jolie is great, but c'mon.

Personally, I also worry that -- all other things being equal -- a script that is written for a younger, fresh-faced, somewhat blandly attractive female Doctor is going to be different than a script written for an older, somewhat crotchety, slightly witchy or stern-looking female Doctor. I don't want this Doctor to be a younger female Doctor AND suddenly become super nurturing and accommodating to everyone's feelings and blush and smile shyly when flirted with, or whatever. I worry that a young, attractive female Doctor won't be allowed to be properly weird and alien, just because it will *feel* alien for people to write those qualities into a female character. Hopefully not, though.

Date: 2017-07-17 08:19 pm (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
As a long-time Doctor Who fan who has been essentially driven off by Moffat, I'm tentatively hopeful, in no small part because Moffat is leaving.

(I was so enthusiastic about him becoming showrunner, too, after his RTD-era scripts. I thought he'd be one of the best. I was... oh god so wrong.)

Also, Colin Baker has been an absolute lion about this on twitter, and it has been wonderful.

Date: 2017-07-18 03:17 pm (UTC)
theweaselking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theweaselking
I just want to "yes, this" almost everything in this comment. Moffat's episodes under Davies were consistently the best episodes of the season, AND were standalone genuinely-good TV. And then Moffat's seasons.

(I was never a big fan, but I thought the show was, leaving aside the execrable season finales, usually good enough that I didn't mind watching it and sometimes really quite good. And I'm married to a SUPERFAN so we watched it. And Moffat-as-showrunner managed to drive *her* off.)

Date: 2017-07-18 04:16 pm (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
I've got a theory about what went wrong.

RTD can draw you a character you believe in with one line of dialogue. His plots may've been a mess and his series finales (other than the first two) terrible, but goddamn, you believed those were people.

Moffat, by contrast, doesn't give fuck one about that and will have characters do whatever the hell he thinks they need to do in order to advance this latest God Damn I'm So Clever (But Not As Clever As I Think I Am) plot, no matter how completely bonkers and off-the-map it might be for them as people. The result is that everyone is a goddamn action figure being jerked around at whim, and you end up just not caring what happens, because they're some kid's action figures, not characters.

Moffat working under RTD meant RTD would fix those problems, so you got the best of both of 'em, and the result was brilliance. Without RTD... well.

Date: 2017-07-18 05:05 pm (UTC)
theweaselking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theweaselking
I wouldn't say "the first two" series finales were any good, either. A hallmark of every NuWho finale is that the stakes are raised, the situation is dire, the world is in danger..... and then Deus hops out of the Machina and reverses all that great buildup.

Season 1: God appears and fixes everything.
Season 2: The History Eraser Button!
Season 3: If we pray REALLY loudly, God appears and presses The History Eraser Button!
Season 4: Hey, did you notice that establishing "regeneration can do anything" basically lets you use The History Eraser Button a lot more often? Like now? More than once?
Season 5: If we pray REALLY loudly, The History Eraser Button!
Season 6: Oh dear fuck this entire season was just up its ass the whole time and then The History Eraser Button!
Season 7,8,9: We'd given up. Sadly, Moffat had not. We popped in for a few episodes here and there when people said they were good, but they never were.

I read a really neat essay on how a couple of Capaldi-Doctor's speeches exemplify the problem of Moffat's writing: One of this Doctor's favourite themes is "you're asking the WRONG QUESTION" which almost always winds up meaning "Stop giving a shit about characters or continuity and stop looking for clues, because The Doctor is so much smarter that the real solution will be something the audience COULD NOT predict and that DOESN'T HAVE to be consistent with anything before, because fuck you, that's why." I'll see if I can dig it up.

Date: 2017-07-19 09:33 am (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
Of course, the world is in danger etc etc crap. But what mattered in those first two years were the emotional stories of the Rose and Doctor relationship, and on that level, those first two worked perfectly. The ending of Series 2? Devastating. Wonderful. Brilliant.

Do I remember the least bits about the mechanical plot? Eh, a little, whatever. Not important. Do I remember every emotional beat? Oh hell yes.

And that's why those two work so well for me, and for a lot of fans. After that, not anymore. So.

Date: 2017-07-19 11:32 am (UTC)
theweaselking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theweaselking
[shrug]. I found the emotional beats heavily undermined by the amount of time setting up the plot that underpinned them, followed by that plot being removed not only without consequences but with an aggressive and explicit rejection that consequences could happen.

And then they did it over and over again.

If the plot had actually been the Doctor saying "yes, yes, Daleks, Cybermen, The Master, whatever, shut up I'll fix them in a minute, the REALLY IMPORTANT things are here!" with everyone around him going "uh... no really this looks bad" before the Doctor ends the issue as dismissively as the writers did, that might have been better. Or it might not. I don't know: I mostly just know that it was "throw something at the screen, be disgusted at myself for spending time on it, need to be cajoled and convinced to give the next season a try by someone who also hated it but just not quite as much as I did."

Date: 2017-07-18 05:13 pm (UTC)
theweaselking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theweaselking
Took me a few minutes but the essay I was thinking of was Alexandra Erin's The Question Of The Doctor.

Date: 2017-07-19 09:34 am (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
Yeah, I read that on the bus earlier today, that essay works for me. Thanks.

Date: 2017-07-19 08:27 am (UTC)
bibliofile: Fan & papers in a stack (from my own photo) (Default)
From: [personal profile] bibliofile
Your theory makes sense to me, re: Moffat and RTD. Sort of like songs by Lennon & McCartney being far stronger than the songs they wrote separately.

(Being So Clever is also one of the most notable qualities of Sherlock via Moffat & Gatiss, but it seems more appropriate there, what with the worshiping of the brilliant intellect inherent in those stories.)

Date: 2017-07-19 09:35 am (UTC)
solarbird: (zoe-and-doctor-who)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
Yeah, but he's not, right? It's a fucking train coming from a mile away and I AM SO VERY CLEVER lights are flashing and the I AM SO VERY VERY CLEVER sirens are sounding and the CHRIST I'M SO BLOODY CLEVER SHUT UP ALREADY YOU WANKER, WE DON'T CARE.

Also applies to Sherlock for me. So.

Date: 2017-07-19 11:25 am (UTC)
theweaselking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] theweaselking
And when it finally arrives you're like "shit, is that just Thomas The Tank Engine? That's not actually that clever" and the writers are all "SHUT UP"

Date: 2017-07-20 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ba_munronoe
(Applauds loudly)

Date: 2017-07-17 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Best comment I've seen yet today: "Since so many people who otherwise didn't care to know anything about it are suddenly So Concerned that the new Doctor is a woman, maybe we should try telling them that climate change is also female."

Date: 2017-07-18 02:48 am (UTC)
kaffyr: The TARDIS says hello (Default)
From: [personal profile] kaffyr
I'll miss Capaldi, who I grew to love, and I'll miss Moffat terribly - after having some initial problems with him, I grew to love how he handled male and female characters, and the entire Whoniverse - but I'm really looking forward to Thirteen. I definitely jumped around and squee'd a lot, and my Best Beloved was almost as happy as I was ("About damned time," was, I believe, his reaction.)


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