james_davis_nicoll: (Default)
[personal profile] james_davis_nicoll
Enraged by how her dad sidelined her education on the apparent assumption she was just going to get married to the next single male she met who she wasn't actually related to, and alarmed by what happened to both her mother and grandmother's careers, Meade Stone sets up the first women's collective in deep space.

Date: 2017-06-16 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Please complete this; I must read it.

Date: 2017-06-16 06:03 pm (UTC)
mme_hardy: White rose (Default)
From: [personal profile] mme_hardy
"all that had to stop as soon as he married one of them, "

It was even worse. Virginia had to stop working as soon as they were living in sin while waiting out Heinlein's divorce, even though Heinlein had no work at all. "A man doesn't live on a woman's wages" took precedence over "A woman likes to eat".

Date: 2017-06-17 01:01 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keith_morrison
Having recently ended an 18 month stretch where the primary income came from my wife while I was doing some part-time consulting work, just let me say that Heinlein was a fucking moron.

(And I had a nice severance package to dip into.)

Date: 2017-06-16 06:09 pm (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
Which SF teaches us that Titan will be inhabited mostly by lesbian or feminist communes?

Date: 2017-06-16 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
This SF, for example https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.history.what-if/nicoll$20titan%7Csort:relevance/soc.history.what-if/OM_IPwdRZs0/CF9hhhw2NMUJ (apologies in advance for the long link)

Date: 2017-06-16 07:58 pm (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
I think the lesbian separatist colony in the Titan books was in Earth orbit.

Date: 2017-06-17 07:51 am (UTC)
scott_sanford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] scott_sanford
I do find it plausible that the twins wouldn't be allowed near the food supply. (Seriously, the family has met these two yoyos.) Lowell is too young. Therefore the job goes to Meade by default.

Date: 2017-06-18 09:13 pm (UTC)
roseembolism: (getoutta)
From: [personal profile] roseembolism
Likewise Roger Stone wouldn't be let near hydroponics, because he'd decide on a proper way to do things, based on MATH, and then stubbornly refuse to change. Six months later, a rocket full of corpses approaches the asteroid belt...

Date: 2017-06-19 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keith_morrison
Minus Roger and the twins, who Justice demands would get eaten first.

Date: 2017-06-26 09:46 am (UTC)
scott_sanford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] scott_sanford
I'd like to imagine that Hazel would be concealed in shadows and machinery, waiting motionless for months in hard vacuum for the moment she leaps out onto an unsuspecting space explorer...

Date: 2017-06-17 07:49 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I do find it plausible that the twins wouldn't be allowed near the food supply. Lowell is too young. Therefore the chore devolves onto Meade by default.

Date: 2017-06-17 08:36 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] eub
I don't know what exactly it is about Heinlein's phrase "husband-high" that enrages me even more than I would expect it to. A certain Heinleinian smugness. The 'metaphor' that this is a ripeness property of the body, inexorably reached whatever's in the person's head, and assessed at least as well by an observer as by the person herself. The fact that girls finish growing while they're minors.

Date: 2017-06-17 02:32 pm (UTC)
philrm: (Default)
From: [personal profile] philrm
I'm going to go with 'All of the above'.

Date: 2017-06-17 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
And never once is there the corollary, "wife-high".

Teka Lynn

Date: 2017-06-18 12:59 am (UTC)
jbwoodford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jbwoodford
The fact that girls finish growing while they're minors.

That skeeviness shows up in a lot of places in his work, and having noticed it once it's hard to unsee. I can't recall the guy he was defending for statutory rape by comparing his situation to that of Will Durant, but yeah.

Date: 2017-06-18 07:56 pm (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
I actually didn't assume it meant she had finished growing, only that she was tall enough. (I grew an inch and went up a shoe size the year I turned 19 myself, long after menarche.) But yeah, it's right up there with "My godson is thirteen and interested, and his sister is eleven and beginning to be interesting." As Seth Ellis trenchantly remarked concerning that passage, "[A] writer who describes an eleven-year-old girl in sexual terms while casually eliding her agency gets all the credit revoked."
Edited Date: 2017-06-18 11:25 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-18 11:49 pm (UTC)
mme_hardy: White rose (Default)
From: [personal profile] mme_hardy
Oh, God, where does *that* sentence come from?

Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 02:34 am (UTC)
jbwoodford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jbwoodford
From the next paragraph: "And little Libby was a redheaded pixie so endearingly sexy at eleven that even I could feel it."

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 04:53 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
It gets even worse when you realize that Heinlein's sister Louise was a year and a half younger than he was, and that they (along with other siblings) shared a bedroom. https://books.google.com/books?id=Z93OvsN2yq8C&pg=PA19

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 05:08 am (UTC)
mme_hardy: White rose (Default)
From: [personal profile] mme_hardy
The thing is, I get that the research proving that an incest taboo was innate was after Heinlein's time. But the fact that he didn't have a visceral "oh, gross" to the idea of a boy with his sister is on Heinlein. I certainly didn't look at my two and have fantasies of their hooking up. In fact, that gives me a cold grue just typing it.

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 06:51 pm (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
I think it can be normal not to be out-and-out repulsed by the idea, but Heinlein seems to think incestuous attraction is to be expected -- and not just as a fleeting sexual thought (which, like many other fleeting thoughts, can be utterly at odds with one's ordinary feelings). (And, again, no consideration of what the girl feels -- what she looks like is supposed to be indication enough.)

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 07:31 pm (UTC)
mme_hardy: White rose (Default)
From: [personal profile] mme_hardy
That's true -- nobody is in charge of fleeting. But Heinlein effing *dwells* on it, over and over and over again. Which is unusual in the human species.

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 08:12 pm (UTC)
jbwoodford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jbwoodford
A friend of mine told me about a young man she had just started dating. They had started what Back In My Day was called making out, but there was something bothering her about the whole thing. And then she realized it was because the young man looked like her brother...and that resemblance completely shut down any interest she had in pursuing the poor fellow. (He was very understanding when she explained it and showed him a pic of her brother, though. To his credit.)

Back to RAH. This line of discussion sheds a new light on his cutesy little dance-around in _Expanded Universe_, on the plot of the unpublished sequel to _Children of the Lens_.
Edited Date: 2017-06-19 08:13 pm (UTC)

Re: Why Did I Click the Link?

Date: 2017-06-19 02:30 pm (UTC)
philrm: (Default)
From: [personal profile] philrm
That is not a sentence I needed in my brain.

Clearly, my decision to abandon Heinlein after 'I Will Fear No Evil' was the correct one.

Date: 2017-06-19 02:57 am (UTC)
mme_hardy: White rose (Default)
From: [personal profile] mme_hardy
Oh. my. god. And then he wishes he could spank his computer.

Date: 2017-06-26 09:49 am (UTC)
scott_sanford: (Default)
From: [personal profile] scott_sanford
Haven't we all wished that at some point?

Date: 2017-06-18 10:13 pm (UTC)
roseembolism: (getoutta)
From: [personal profile] roseembolism
I suppose as a background detail the Stones could be the equivalent of some highly conservative religious sect (I suppose Libertarianism might qualify as a religion in the future), with highly particular beliefs: atomic power good, advanced computers bad; Math (for boys) good, social studies bad; laser pistols good, independent careers for women bad, and so on.

It just seems like a fundamentalist thing to go cram a family into a small rocket to spread the Good Word of free markets to people out in the belt.
Edited Date: 2017-06-18 10:18 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-20 10:31 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ba_munronoe
I'm willing to headcanon that Heinlein's world has gonzo physics so atomic power is cheap and safe, and advanced computing really hard: but not that human beings are fundamentally different from what they actually are.

(_That_ head canon is needed for L. Neil Smith. :D )
Edited Date: 2017-06-20 10:31 pm (UTC)

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