Date: 2017-04-29 02:29 am (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_rck
I really highly recommend the anime series and the movie.

Don't watch the movie until after the series, though, because the movie is, erm, beyond surreal. A friend of mine called the movie a visual poem, and that fits. It just doesn't explain the several occasions of pure WTF???

Date: 2017-04-29 12:00 pm (UTC)
glaurung_quena: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glaurung_quena
The series is pretty surreal in spots itself.

For those who don't have time for the anime series, the movie delivers about 90% of the series in an extremely condensed form.

Date: 2017-04-29 02:15 pm (UTC)
flemmings: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flemmings
The movie misses all the subtlety and ambiguity of the series, IMO. The reduction of Touga and Akio is particularly striking. I feel director Ikuhara walked back a lot of the anti-romanticism he put into the anime.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:45 pm (UTC)
undomielregina: Rusyuna from the anime Grenadier text: "Grenadier" (Default)
From: [personal profile] undomielregina
I think the movie works very well if viewed as a sequel in which Anthy has returned to rescue Utena. It explains most of the characterization changes pretty neatly, including why the entire Student Council seems vaguely more functional.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:59 pm (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_rck
I like that idea! It still doesn't quite explain all of the ending (which is one of those things that, if you describe it to someone who hasn't seen it, is always met with absolute disbelief).

Date: 2017-05-02 12:16 am (UTC)
rwpikul: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rwpikul
I've seen it and I still not sure I believe they did that.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:51 pm (UTC)
undomielregina: Rusyuna from the anime Grenadier text: "Grenadier" (Default)
From: [personal profile] undomielregina
+1

I'd even go so far as to say that the series is substantially better than the manga. They're very different things, of course, but Chiho Saito didn't share Ikuhara's interests in lesbian love and the deconstruction of gender roles which removes most of what's let the series endure for 20 years. I just can't really love any version of Utena in which Juri is in love with Touga.

Date: 2017-04-29 04:57 pm (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_rck
Oh, lord, yes. Juri is so much better in the anime.

I have heard that the folks writing the dub script for the anime didn't actually twig to the fact that Juri is a lesbian until one of the voice actors pointed it out. If true, it probably explains some problems with the dub script.

Date: 2017-04-29 05:30 pm (UTC)
undomielregina: Rusyuna from the anime Grenadier text: "Grenadier" (Default)
From: [personal profile] undomielregina
I've heard that too. It was Crispin Freeman apparently, which, having seen him do a Q&A at a con, doesn't surprise me. He came across as a pretty smart, engaged guy who loves Utena and has a lot of cool thoughts about the series (it's pity that was so early in his career, because he's awful as Touga and does good work nowadays.)

I actually like Chiho Saito's other work, is the funny thing! She and Ikuhara were just a very poor fit for each other.

Date: 2017-04-29 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ba_munronoe
I'm a little confused here - the Anime came first and then the Manga?

Date: 2017-04-29 08:19 pm (UTC)
undomielregina: Rusyuna from the anime Grenadier text: "Grenadier" (Default)
From: [personal profile] undomielregina
The manga started publication before the anime aired, but they were actually developed concurrently with the intention that both creators do their own riffs on the same premise. Chiho Saito handled the character designs for the series as well as the manga and Ikuhara did the anime. Ikuhara used the same process for Yuri Kuma Arashi, his most recent series, but that collaboration went rather better (which might have something to do with his chosen manga author, Milk Morinaga, being a huge fan of his). From what I've gathered, Chiho Saito wasn't terribly fond of the Utena anime, whereas Milk Morinaga adored the YKA one.

Date: 2017-04-30 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ba_munronoe
I see: interesting.

Date: 2017-04-30 02:27 pm (UTC)
iayork: (Default)
From: [personal profile] iayork
"I cannot say that I liked the manga art" -- I feel like I've seen similar comments from you in the past, James. Is this a general dislike of manga art, or are there some that you do like?

Date: 2017-04-30 06:04 pm (UTC)
snarp: small cute androgynous android crossing arms and looking very serious (Default)
From: [personal profile] snarp
Not to pressure you in the direction of a potentially-exhausting experience, but: the TV series is much, much better than the manga, and you should watch the TV series.

The TV series is considered to be the "canonical" version of the story, and its plot is only superficially similar to the manga's. It addresses directly the Creepy Stuff that the manga does not, and it's explicitly feminist and angry. In the sense that iterative and increasingly-surreal visual metaphors can be called direct or explicit, anyway. The only way Ikuhara could get away with telling this story on television was, I guess, by making it visually impossible to parse.

It's really good, though! And you should watch it!

The movie is meant to be watched after the TV series, and is sort of a dream sequence retelling/rewriting it. (From, I think, specifically Anthy's POV.) It's probably better to consider it an epilogue than a story in itself, as it's extremely difficult to follow even with context.

(My friend some-triangles on Tumblr recently did a really good episode-by-episode commentary of it.)

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